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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post

    When you think of the utter dross that sells (and shifts consoles) today, it's clear in hindsight we've lost that creative philosophy that seems intrinsic to the way only the Japanese do/did things back in that era. When SEGA reshuffled its divisions circa 2000 it brought about a golden age of gaming we were lucky to experience.
    I don't it was much different back then, dross sold bucket loads back then and tbh I party blame the Japanese for the flops like the Dreamcast. Unless you had Squaresoft and Final Fantasy on your system back then, the Japanese didn't want to know.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I don't it was much different back then, dross sold bucket loads back then and tbh I party blame the Japanese for the flops like the Dreamcast. Unless you had Squaresoft and Final Fantasy on your system back then, the Japanese didn't want to know.
    Sales are one thing, but videogame production and the overall creative philosophy of development studios is drastically compromised to how it was in the Dreamcast era, you'd be mad to suggest it's the same as it's ever been. Today we get homogenised games running on homogenised engines, that take little creative or artistic risks in gameplay (especially in the West), and focus on storytelling to compensate for lack of ability. That documentary was a stark reminder of it for me. SEGA were taking huge risks. It paid off artistically and critically, just not commercially.

    I agree completely that the Japanese sales market has always been especially bonkers (read: backwards thinking), and that harmed a console like the DC, but it wasn't much better elsewhere in the world either. It's hard to pin-point what they did wrong at all, perhaps the PS2 was the elephant in the room.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
    Sales are one thing, but videogame production and the overall creative philosophy of development studios is drastically compromised to how it was in the Dreamcast era, you'd be mad to suggest it's the same as it's ever been. Today we get homogenised games running on homogenised engines, that take little creative or artistic risks in gameplay (especially in the West), and focus on storytelling to compensate for lack of ability. That documentary was a stark reminder of it for me. SEGA were taking huge risks. It paid off artistically and critically, just not commercially.
    .
    I don't agree. I'm quite amazed at the output from the small studios of today on many levels; From their originality, to how professionally made the games are to how good they look and sound. I was down mates playing A Plague Tale and it's so wonderful, on Gamepass I'm enjoying some of the most creative games I've played in a long time with the likes of What Remains of Edith Finch and so on

    I grew up believing Japan was this wonderful gaming nation, where unlike the West, was ready to take risks and make new creative games and then one went to Japan and its as casual as the West (more so even) for gaming. Unless it's an RPG or got the number 7 in it (or above), the Japanese gamer doesn't want to know and the amount of great gaming systems and indeed games The Japanese gamer as turned it's back on it quite tragic.

    If anything the Wester gamer has been more open to different games, different genre's and different gaming systems from around the world

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I don't agree. I'm quite amazed at the output from the small studios of today on many levels; From their originality, to how professionally made the games are to how good they look and sound. I was down mates playing A Plague Tale and it's so wonderful, on Gamepass I'm enjoying some of the most creative games I've played in a long time with the likes of What Remains of Edith Finch and so on.
    If you think 'A Plague Tale' and '...Edith Finch' aren't exact examples of that creative homogeneity I was referencing, then I don't know what to tell ya.

    It's true that Western design (traditionally at least) was more open to experimenting with technology and different concepts. But without wanting to go too off topic here, I still believe that the true spirit of videogame design comes from Japan, and the Dream Cast documentary (as well as your own comments about a preference to Western game design these days) proves that something has changed along the way. I found it very hard to swallow watching that documentary that the loss of Sega, and what they represented, has been for the better.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
    If you think 'A Plague Tale' and '...Edith Finch' aren't exact examples of that creative homogeneity I was referencing, then I don't know what to tell ya.
    .
    Those just small examples, there's plenty of quite creative games these days from the small indie developers and if one wants to talk of homogeneity; no matter how amazing Skies of Arcadia is, it is just an RPG, Space Channel another music game, Soulcalibur just a Vs fighter

    What's really changed is Japan as sold its video game development soul, to the handhelds and the mobile and is a shadow of its amazing development past, as a result, the developers find it hard to match the pipelines of the Western developers

    There's always that saying 'what goes around, comes around'. I remember when Western developers were saying they didn't have the budgets or the staff numbers to compete with Japan, now it seems to its Japan developers, that can't match Western budgets and staffing numbers. At least SEGA Japan is starting to come back to the consoles a little more, and pulling back from its heavy focus on mobile and there's always Capcom too

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I grew up believing Japan was this wonderful gaming nation, where unlike the West, was ready to take risks and make new creative games and then one went to Japan and its as casual as the West (more so even) for gaming. Unless it's an RPG or got the number 7 in it (or above), the Japanese gamer doesn't want to know and the amount of great gaming systems and indeed games The Japanese gamer as turned it's back on it quite tragic.

    If anything the Wester gamer has been more open to different games, different genre's and different gaming systems from around the world
    Japanese game design was generally much more professional and therefore polished in the 80s and 90s. Also, when Japanese designers were fully focused on their culture and market, it made sure they had artistic integrity.

    It's when Japanese publishers started pandering to the Western markets that game design suffered. You ended up with strange Eastern-Western hybrid games that hardly anyone liked.

    Of course, the rise in Western gaming with the PS2 generation onwards did lead to Japanese publishers panicking and trying to find ways to appeal to gamers in the West who weren't as interested in Japanese games as they once were.

    I think that sort of thing has calmed down over recent years though, with Japanese designers now more focused on staying true to their sensibilities. But I'm not sure if Japanese gaming will ever be a huge thing in Western markets again. Well.. not to the extent of how it was in the 80s and 90s when Japan really did rule the world of gaming -- and quite rightly so.

    Another important point is -- Western developers gradually learned how to make truly fun, polished games. They learned a lot from Japanese game design. By the PS2 era, you were seeing Western devs delivering far more professional products that could easily stand proud next to the best from Japan. So you ended with games that had a very Western design ethos but with the polished quality you'd expect from a top Japanese publisher. This led to Western devs becoming extremely popular and well respected, which took the focus away from Japanese gaming. Gamers in the West then decided that they tended to prefer what Western devs were delivering.

    You will always have Japanese games that appeal to a worldwide audience, but the days of Japanese publisher domination are long gone.
    Last edited by Leon Retro; Yesterday at 12:11 PM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Retro View Post
    Japanese game design was generally much more professional and therefore polished in the 80s and 90s.
    Yep, in Japan, you had like studios making games, while in the UK we had Matthew making Manic Minner in his bedroom LOL

    Another important point is -- Western developers gradually learned how to make truly fun, polished games. They learned a lot from Japanese game design. By the PS2 era, you were seeing Western devs delivering far more professional products that could easily stand proud next to the best from Japan
    Yeah, also I was so disappointed with Japan when amazing games like Gradius V or Vagrant Story just didn't sell in Japan, while FF sold million and millions of copies. I also think that the likes of the 3DS and Wii did so much bad for Japanese development. Sure it sold millions, brought in new gamers and corps made millions off it, but it led to Japanese corps going more and more for mobile, simple games at the expense of big-budget huge productions, which as just seen the likes of Ubi take over.

    Namco and Capcom are really the exceptions to the rule in Japan

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