Europe IV: The Final Hour

[Neon Ignition]

It's the same old pattern

Older voters - Tend to vote Tory and are growing in number all the time
Middle Aged voters - Transition from Left to Right generally as they grow older
Youth vote - Never, ever turns out in the required numbers. Certainly won't in December

[Dogg Thang]

Middle Aged voters - Transition from Left to Right generally as they grow olderr

I think it's a very slow creep but I have a suspicion this is changing or at least will change soon. Lots of millennials have been shafted and I don't think that's going to be pulling them right. We're talking people in their thirties and I don't see it getting much better for the post-millennials. I think the past transition to the right was probably about what Asura was talking about - as people aged, they got more and felt the right could hold on to that better (as wrong as many would be). That's not going to happen when your 40s is staring you in the face and you have no house, no pension, your job is constantly at risk and it doesn't seem like things are going to get better. The right have nothing to offer that generation.

[Mayhem]

This thing with the bloke on TV shouting that he's NOT in the top 5% of earners when he earns £80k is hilarious

Thing is, I think I saw where he was coming from. The top 5% figure published relates to people actually earning on PAYE etc. The bloke on QT was also including everyone who "earns" but don't actually directly work, like they get income from investments, dividends, interest, selling items etc, generated outside of the "standard system" that most of us are locked into. Especially those that don't pay tax on that revenue either.

[Dogg Thang]

I think any point that requires a "well, technically..." addendum is usually flimsy.

[Asura]

Thing is, I think I saw where he was coming from. The top 5% figure published relates to people actually earning on PAYE etc. The bloke on QT was also including everyone who "earns" but don't actually directly work, like they get income from investments, dividends, interest, selling items etc, generated outside of the "standard system" that most of us are locked into. Especially those that don't pay tax on that revenue either.

Sorry, but I can't get on board with that.

The funny part wasn't really the 5% thing; I, too, was kinda surprised that £80k would get you into the top 5% PAYE bracket (£135k is 1%, too, apparently). Like this isn't questioning that 80k is a high wage, it's just that I would've thought the top 5% would be higher.

It's that the guy in question makes two assertions; firstly, that he believes 80k isn't even in the top 50% (absurd) and that every doctor and lawyer in the UK earns more than him (also absurd).

Don't defend the guy. He's ran his mouth off without doing any investigation, and his (presumed wife) sitting next to him who agrees with him is the same. He's the problem with politics; he's assembled a worldview that confirms his biases without doing any research, and he's willing to get angry at someone over those unfounded opinions.

[nakamura]

I'm 38 and creeping further and further away from the right. The Tories are absolute ***** and must be voted out.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I think they are looking downright dangerous. They are starting to present themselves as a proto-dictatorship.

[gordon]

It's the same old pattern

Older voters - Tend to vote Tory and are growing in number all the time
Middle Aged voters - Transition from Left to Right generally as they grow older
Youth vote - Never, ever turns out in the required numbers. Certainly won't in December

Just to counter this: I’m 54 and am growing more left wing the older I get. Even Blair is too right wing now. I started off thinking Thatcher was a good thing at 15, switched to the Lib Dems / SDLP when I was 20, and am now firmly a Corbynista. But yeah, I think your point stands in a broader sense.

[Anpanman]

It's the same old pattern

Older voters - Tend to vote Tory and are growing in number all the time
Middle Aged voters - Transition from Left to Right generally as they grow older
Youth vote - Never, ever turns out in the required numbers. Certainly won't in December

Wouldn't disagree, whilst I'm getting grumpier by the minute I'm a floater.

Thing is though, I'm normally interested in politics and since Question Time started when I was around sixteen or so I had probably only missed a handful of episodes until around six months after the Brexit vote. Since then I've lost interest and ashamed to say I haven't got a clue who I'm going to vote for as I'm totally ****ed off with politicians of any stripe.

[Neon Ignition]

It's also why any second referendum would remain very closely contested, that younger voter mentality of 'this affects me loads and by now loads of those older voters who voted Leave will have already died' doesn't ring true as shown by how easily the Tories are stomping it despite bringing nothing to the table but corruption. Like DT says, it seems likely things will change especially with less and less of the public standing to look to gain from the Tories approach in future years but that change takes decades so the last 3 years will make little dent overall sadly.

It's quite depressing really with Brexit, over nearly 4 full threads now we've gone on the complete journey with it and especially considering where 2016 started off there's just no real defensible reason to be going about it the way the parties are.

[Brad]

Just to counter this: I’m 54 and am growing more left wing the older I get. Even Blair is too right wing now. I started off thinking Thatcher was a good thing at 15, switched to the Lib Dems / SDLP when I was 20, and am now firmly a Corbynista. But yeah, I think your point stands in a broader sense.

I’m 50 and veering left. And not because of a dodgy hip you cheeky scamps!

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/25/labour-has-let-poison-of-antisemitism-take-root-says-chief-rabbi

Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis has said that Corbyn has allowed a 'poison sanctioned from the top' when it comes to anti-Semitism.

The comments have led to another blow back against Corbyn from all sides over the issue. Labour will be launching its Faith and Race Manifesto this morning.
Fear not, though...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/26/general-election-parties-attack-each-others-spending-plans-after-manifestos-lay-differences-bare

There's always the Tories to help by providing their own issues. Today it's that analysis has shown that under another Tory government child poverty will reach its worst levels in 60 years.

[Asura]

Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis has said that Corbyn has allowed a 'poison sanctioned from the top' when it comes to anti-Semitism.

Okay, I'm going to just ask this once...

Can anyone explain what the Labour anti-semitism thing is about? Ideally in the manner you might explain to a child?

Because I just don't understand it at all. Like, anti-semitism is a problem, I'm not disputing that. I know what it is. I just don't get why there's a belief that the Labour party has a specific problem with the Jewish religion or those who practice said religion within this country.

[Golgo]

Okay, I'm going to just ask this once...

Can anyone explain what the Labour anti-semitism thing is about? Ideally in the manner you might explain to a child?

Because I just don't understand it at all. Like, anti-semitism is a problem, I'm not disputing that. I know what it is. I just don't get why there's a belief that the Labour party has a specific problem with the Jewish religion or those who practice said religion within this country.

As far as I can tell there are some genuine antisemites in the party and a lackadaisical manner of dealing with them from the top, but the majority of the issue comes down to the construal of any criticism of Israeli foreign policy as inherently antisemitic, which is something the Israeli government is very keen to encourage as it provides a highly emotive and effective line of defence.

[Zaki]

A lot of Jewish people openly criticise Isreal, does that make them antisemetic?

Seems to be a can of worms no one wants to open.

It's ok, I can say that. My Dad's cousin's uncle's cat is Jewish.