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The Sega Saturn games no one should let pass by?

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    #16
    I find that with the Saturn quite a lot of the great games have been ported to other consoles, like the 360. Awesome stuff like Dragon Force is still exclusive though (at least in English).

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      #17
      Originally posted by Jaz View Post
      I find that with the Saturn quite a lot of the great games have been ported to other consoles, like the 360.
      I really wish Guardian Heroes would get moved over to PC, but I think Microsoft had a hand in it, so it probably never will.

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        #18
        Do you reckon a Sega Saturn mini is on the cards?

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          #19
          I don't think it'll ever happen, just because the emulation is still so far behind.

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            #20
            Originally posted by hudson View Post
            Do you reckon a Sega Saturn mini is on the cards?
            I honestly would be shocked if we got one. Firstly because emulation of Saturn titles is still hit and miss; moreso than the Megadrive, which whilst the MD emulation may not always please purists, it's been fine for the bulk of games and most people to be happy since ~2000. Sega Saturn emu, unless it has come on pretty recently, isn't really up to scratch due to the machine's unusual hardware...

            Though admittedly, if M2 were doing it, with their priveleged access to resources within Sega, they might be able to crack it.

            I think it would be a niche product. The PSMini has shown how these things aren't really bought to play; they're bought to have or as novelty Xmas gifts - a slot they fill really well, if I'm honest. I'm not sure the Saturn holds a place in the heart of enough people to really justify the time and expense.

            That being said... I always say this in these discussions but we got an Xbox 360 version of Guardian Heroes, SNK are back, the various NeoGeo mini-consoles exist, Capcom's Aliens Vs. Predator has found its way out of licensing jail... In truth, in 2020, anything can happen in gaming.

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              #21
              I think even if you sorted the architecture, the game line-up would be a problem. You’ve got licensing issues varying from major to minor on the in-house games (Daytona USA, Die Hard Arcade, Sega Rally, Sega Touring Car, Fighting Vipers). Then you’ll have controller arguments, people insisting that Nights and Sega Rally need the 3D pad. Virtua Cop 1&2 and House of the Dead would also be unlikely due to the lightgun situation.

              Then they’d be looking at third-party stuff, but the rights for some of the big money stuff like the shooters are all over the place now so that could be a nightmare. Some have been ported elsewhere and are still up for sale. There’d inevitably be some huge title everyone wants that just can’t be obtained, but they’ll have included some title nobody in the world cares about. Something like Tunnel B1.

              Main problem though is that I don’t think there’s much of a casual scene for Saturn stuff, so most of the buyers would be Saturn experts who aren’t just going to play Virtua Fighter for an hour on Christmas morning and then probably never touch it again. This sort would be less forgiving about things like input lag and glitches, especially once the YouTube lot get hold of them and do thumbnails with them holding it and making an expression like they’ve just witnessed a row of ducklings being run over by a lorry.

              This would cause an inevitable backlash, a load of one-star reviews, then they’d be clearing them out at £20 for people to use as a cheap emulation boxes or a source of nice USB pads. Don’t do it, Sega! It’s not worth it!

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                #22
                Originally posted by Hirst View Post
                I think even if you sorted the architecture, the game line-up would be a problem. You’ve got licensing issues varying from major to minor on the in-house games (Daytona USA, Die Hard Arcade, Sega Rally, Sega Touring Car, Fighting Vipers). Then you’ll have controller arguments, people insisting that Nights and Sega Rally need the 3D pad. Virtua Cop 1&2 and House of the Dead would also be unlikely due to the lightgun situation.
                Yeah; there's a bit to unpack here. As someone who has dealt with this kind of thing in the past, generally speaking, if games have had re-releases on digital platforms, that usually means they're "clean" in terms of licensing. It doesn't mean they're "good to go", for example, if you wanted to bring back one of the OutRun 2 games you'd need to deal with Ferrari, but the company in question at least knows who to speak to and what terms are going to need to be arranged - like someone will have gone to the pains of documenting them for later reference.

                The problem with titles of the Saturn era (and before) is that the industry was going through big changes back then. Publishers still didn't see games as perennial sellers, because they weren't. The creators of Tomb Raider likely gave zero thought to whether anyone would still buy it in 2019.

                So if you're trying to re-release those games in 2020, you seriously often have to start by tracking down people in the credits and asking them. Even if you do this, some naturally have no coherent memories of the development, plus memory is fallible and they might be wrong. Hell, it's been ~23 years; it's morbid, but some of those people are going to be dead!

                That means titles like Virtua Fighter 2 and Daytona USA, which have relatively recent releases on PSN, are probably going to be as straightforward as you're going to get (very few games, by the Saturn's time, are absolutely free of complications, whereas if you go back to the C64, a fair few games could be easier because they literally might've all been made by ~4 salaried employees, who were all in the same room!).

                Then they’d be looking at third-party stuff, but the rights for some of the big money stuff like the shooters are all over the place now so that could be a nightmare. Some have been ported elsewhere and are still up for sale. There’d inevitably be some huge title everyone wants that just can’t be obtained, but they’ll have included some title nobody in the world cares about. Something like Tunnel B1.
                I'm convinced that this is what happened with the PS1 classic. The selection of games is a bizarre scattershot melee of PS1 titles, with absolutely no consistent theme between them. They're not the best, not the earliest, in some cases not even considered particularly good games (seriously, no-one wants to play Toshinden in 2019 apart from weirdos like me!).

                I can only assume they considered various themes, then as titles proved unavailable/problematic, they just started swapping them out for anything they could, and some titles will have been easier than others, first on a technical level, then on a licensing level.

                It's like if you're licensing, say, Formula 1 teams. You email them all; Red Bull, Mercedes...

                Ferrari take weeks to get back to you, and even when they do, they're uncooperative. Their licensing guy is talking to you on a mobile phone; he's on connecting flights and sitting in Schipol Airport, having just spent two weeks working with photographing supermodels cavorting over the new car model, and on his way to meet with Miss Italy at Goodwood Festival of Speed to talk about whether they can get her to wear a Ferrari-branded line of Cartier diamond jewellery. You're trying to ask him to license something like a mug, or a baseball cap, or even a videogame... He'll get back to you. Eventually.

                Meanwhile the guy at Marussia is just happy to be invited to the party. He gets back to you IMMEDIATELY.

                In this example, Marussia is Toshinden and Ferrari are, I dunno, Tobal. You end up taking Toshinden while Tobal's doing something in Dubai he'll later be shamed for on social media.

                Main problem though is that I don’t think there’s much of a casual scene for Saturn stuff, so most of the buyers would be Saturn experts who aren’t just going to play Virtua Fighter for an hour on Christmas morning and then probably never touch it again. This sort would be less forgiving about things like input lag and glitches, especially once the YouTube lot get hold of them and do thumbnails with them holding it and making an expression like they’ve just witnessed a row of ducklings being run over by a lorry.

                This would cause an inevitable backlash, a load of one-star reviews, then they’d be clearing them out at £20 for people to use as a cheap emulation boxes or a source of nice USB pads. Don’t do it, Sega! It’s not worth it!
                Ultimately this is what would kill it.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by hudson View Post
                  Sega Saturn passed me by. I played Sega Rally a bit at my mates. Which was cool. However, I went full PlayStation and never looked back.

                  Recently I have discovered that the Saturn has a library of great shmups which I'm slowly checking out. I also like the look of Guardian Heroes.

                  I'm interested to know what you guys here think are some great Saturn games that need to be checked out?
                  Daytona USA. Yea you can get newer arcade perfect ports these days but i'd argue the Saturn one on a pad still controls better despite the frame rate.

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                    #24
                    Mansion of Hidden Butterflies.

                    Edit: It's actually called Mansion of Hidden Souls!

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Asura View Post
                      So if you're trying to re-release those games in 2020, you seriously often have to start by tracking down people in the credits and asking them. Even if you do this, some naturally have no coherent memories of the development, plus memory is fallible and they might be wrong. Hell, it's been ~23 years; it's morbid, but some of those people are going to be dead!

                      That means titles like Virtua Fighter 2 and Daytona USA, which have relatively recent releases on PSN, are probably going to be as straightforward as you're going to get (very few games, by the Saturn's time, are absolutely free of complications, whereas if you go back to the C64, a fair few games could be easier because they literally might've all been made by ~4 salaried employees, who were all in the same room!).
                      Not that I know much about HR in general, because I don't, but is the games industry different somehow? In previous jobs where I've been an employee, there's always been a clause in my contract saying that anything I create/design/invent, etc. as part of my job automatically belongs to the employer and I waive all rights to it. Is it not the same at game devs? In the modern era it would be an immense ballache of a task if you had to track down all the hundreds of people involved to ask them individually if you wanted to re-release a modern game at some point in the future.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by endo View Post
                        Not that I know much about HR in general, because I don't, but is the games industry different somehow? In previous jobs where I've been an employee, there's always been a clause in my contract saying that anything I create/design/invent, etc. as part of my job automatically belongs to the employer and I waive all rights to it. Is it not the same at game devs? In the modern era it would be an immense ballache of a task if you had to track down all the hundreds of people involved to ask them individually if you wanted to re-release a modern game at some point in the future.
                        It is a ballache when it happens, and in theory, yes - and much of a game will be "owned" by a company.

                        However, there are areas where this comes into question. For example, many games use off-the-shelf engines which might have specific terms of use. They might use SDKs or plugins for things like audio and physics, which they don't wholly own. In Japan especially, voice artists may have complicated contract terms.

                        Games made now tend to deal with all of these up-front, because companies know that digital can mean forever, or at least, a very long time, so they write up their contracts to take this into account - where possible. Studios are less likely, if the option is on the cards, to take a short-term agreement than maybe they were 10 years ago.

                        Take, for example, 1080 Snowboarding. The clothes the characters wear were made by Tommy Hilfiger, and the boards were by Lamar. I think the music was licensed too. Nintendo might own these lock, stock and barrel, like their contract may have given them carte blanche to do whatever they wanted with these re: future releases, but not every developer has that kind of foresight.

                        For a specific, real-world example, the writer's strike that ran a ramrod through the run of Battlestar Galactica was about something very similar, where loads of shows were making their way to the (upcoming) streaming platforms and their writers were on strike, because their contracts specified they were paid for TV airings and "videogram sales" (sales of the shows/movies on physical media) and the media companies claimed, therefore, they didn't have to pay the writers royalties for showings on Netflix.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by endo View Post
                          Not that I know much about HR in general, because I don't, but is the games industry different somehow? In previous jobs where I've been an employee, there's always been a clause in my contract saying that anything I create/design/invent, etc. as part of my job automatically belongs to the employer and I waive all rights to it. Is it not the same at game devs? In the modern era it would be an immense ballache of a task if you had to track down all the hundreds of people involved to ask them individually if you wanted to re-release a modern game at some point in the future.
                          As Asura mentions, VO artists can be particularly tricky and not just in Japan because getting a complete buyout isn't always easy. Same with music in that there are protections and rights in place for certain aspects. And even when buyout contracts exist, which as you say will usually be the place for employees, often if these can't all be found and checked (and as you can imagine, that's not always easy for a very old game) people won't take the risk in case they spend money and someone comes out of the woodwork challenging something. You can know you own all rights needed and would win any case but the cost of a defending a potential challenge might not be worth the release.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
                            As Asura mentions, VO artists can be particularly tricky and not just in Japan because getting a complete buyout isn't always easy. Same with music in that there are protections and rights in place for certain aspects. And even when buyout contracts exist, which as you say will usually be the place for employees, often if these can't all be found and checked (and as you can imagine, that's not always easy for a very old game) people won't take the risk in case they spend money and someone comes out of the woodwork challenging something. You can know you own all rights needed and would win any case but the cost of a defending a potential challenge might not be worth the release.
                            Yep, it's a global issue, actors in the US for example have very powerful unions.

                            Japan's voice acting ettiquette is quite, I guess, I'd use the word "esoteric"? Characters are associated with a voice actor and unless that actor dies or is disgraced in a severe PR blunder, they rarely change them. I'm not entirely sure if this is usually a contractual first-refusal thing, or if it's such a strongly-held tradition that no-one challenges it. This has become a particularly relevant problem in the last 10 years, when the number of voice actor deaths on long-standing series have increased, because of the growth in media creation in the 50s, 60s, 70s... Basically there are more voice actors, so more of them die.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by hudson View Post
                              Do you reckon a Sega Saturn mini is on the cards?
                              No chance.

                              Current SoC tech simply not up to emulating Saturn software and, quite frankly, the retro miniconsole novelty feels like it has worn off, by which I mean that I would hazard a guess that the MD Mini is currently struggling to sell (going by the fact that it is ridiculously easy to pick one up at present) and that PCE Mini pre-orders are still widely available months after the announcement which would suggest a considerable lack of interest, but also that I feel like I'm seeing more and more "mainstream" appreciation for OG hardware, especially where the Saturn is concerned.
                              Last edited by Nu-Eclipse; 11-12-2019, 18:47.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Nu-Eclipse View Post
                                No chance.

                                Current SoC tech simply not up to emulating Saturn software and, quite frankly, the retro miniconsole novelty feels like it has worn off, by which I mean that I would hazard a guess that the MD Mini is currently struggling to sell (going by the fact that it is ridiculously easy to pick one up at present) and that PCE Mini pre-orders are still widely available months after the announcement which would suggest a considerable lack of interest, but also that I feel like I'm seeing more and more "mainstream" appreciation for OG hardware, especially where the Saturn is concerned.
                                The PCEngine, I think, is a good barometer for the Saturn. The Megadrive isn't as directly comparable but things like the PCE and SNK's stuff is.

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