United Kingdom V: Son of a beach

[fallenangle]

You should watch BBC2 Newsnight's (Friday) edition if you want to see that there are at least two sides to the mask wearing arguments.

The points made against making it compulsory by two experts were practically a repeat of what I suggested in this thread earlier, poo-pooed by some here. One of them also made it clear that this late attempt at introducing it in England and Wales was politically motivated more than anything.

The authorities want to be seen to be doing something, no matter how fatuous, to reassure the public that after scaring a lot of people witless to keep them at home, that it is now perfectly safe to go back to work and shop in the local high street if you wear a mask. It is not. The enforced use of masks as a symbol of social compliance is also something I suggested weeks ago here would be used by the authorities.

But the absurdity of this new pressure to introduce such regulations so late seems to have been missed. You have a government encouraging in particular the reopening restaurants, pubs, clubs and gyms and even giving away 50% discount vouchers for eating out.

Can you please tell how you can eat and drink wearing a mask? If its OK not to wear a mask in an eatery or take a swig from a bottle of water in a gym where you could be in a room with dozens of other people for several hours why popping into a corner shop for 90 seconds to buy a ready meal, a loaf of bread or some milk without a mask could land you with a fine as is also being proposed?

It is bloody stupid timing as much as anything. If this had been introduced right at the start few would have objected. But it could not have been done then without denuding the health service of their vital PPE because it was in such short supply at that time and even now.

[kryss]

This one?

[Team Andromeda]

You can’t honestly say it’s better now though?

No, But I have a choice and look to use UPS or the likes of Amazon Prime each and every time I can.
I don't have an ideological view over it all, sorry.

[MartyG]

You should watch BBC2 Newsnight's (Friday) edition if you want to see that there are at least two sides to the mask wearing arguments.

There are two sides to the climate change argument too, that doesn't mean both have equal weighting.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6498/1422.full

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, and a lot of people on one of those sides who, rather than accepting the years of research and knowledge of the majority of scientists, will instead try to seek out any tiny shred or detractor that might back up the view they want and will cling on to it for dear life. It doesn’t mean their ‘argument’ has any validity. Doesn’t make it equal. Not by a long shot.

And like anti-vaxxers, the unfortunate side effect of this is that it can put others at risk. That said, I like to let the flat-earthers have their fun. They hurt nobody and they’re quite hilarious.

[fuse]

And like anti-vaxxers, the unfortunate side effect of this is that it can put others at risk. That said, I like to let the flat-earthers have their fun. They hurt nobody and they’re quite hilarious.

I'd love that this were the case, but so much of the spread of this happens via tools like YouTube, and as soon as you start on one of these trains of thought, you'll soon be served plenty of other conspiracist nonsense that is plenty harmful.

[Dogg Thang]

I'd love that this were the case, but so much of the spread of this happens via tools like YouTube, and as soon as you start on one of these trains of thought, you'll soon be served plenty of other conspiracist nonsense that is plenty harmful.

Yes, that’s very true. And it does seem that, once people go down one tiny maybe even somewhat believable rabbit hole, they are susceptible to all kinds of nonsense after that.

[prinnysquad]

No, But I have a choice and look to use UPS or the likes of Amazon Prime each and every time I can.
I don't have an ideological view over it all, sorry.

Royal Mail used to provide next day delivery. It was called first class post. Until it was meddled with under the ideological con trick of ‘competition’.

Nationalisation is not a question of ideology. It’s a question of providing the best service with zero distractions. The profit margin is always a distraction. The fact that it’s now normalised to think that next day delivery is remarkable and incredible shows the level of manipulative brainwashing that’s taken place.

[wakka]

You should watch BBC2 Newsnight's (Friday) edition if you want to see that there are at least two sides to the mask wearing arguments.

The points made against making it compulsory by two experts were practically a repeat of what I suggested in this thread earlier, poo-pooed by some here. One of them also made it clear that this late attempt at introducing it in England and Wales was politically motivated more than anything.

The authorities want to be seen to be doing something, no matter how fatuous, to reassure the public that after scaring a lot of people witless to keep them at home, that it is now perfectly safe to go back to work and shop in the local high street if you wear a mask. It is not. The enforced use of masks as a symbol of social compliance is also something I suggested weeks ago here would be used by the authorities.

But the absurdity of this new pressure to introduce such regulations so late seems to have been missed. You have a government encouraging in particular the reopening restaurants, pubs, clubs and gyms and even giving away 50% discount vouchers for eating out.

Can you please tell how you can eat and drink wearing a mask? If its OK not to wear a mask in an eatery or take a swig from a bottle of water in a gym where you could be in a room with dozens of other people for several hours why popping into a corner shop for 90 seconds to buy a ready meal, a loaf of bread or some milk without a mask could land you with a fine as is also being proposed?

It is bloody stupid timing as much as anything. If this had been introduced right at the start few would have objected. But it could not have been done then without denuding the health service of their vital PPE because it was in such short supply at that time and even now.

On an individual level though, it really doesn't hurt to wear a mask.

[kryss]

[MENTION=5490]wakka[/MENTION] *e-hugs*

BUT THE EXPERTS!

Yes, one is a sociology prof (FFS) and one was merely advocating for more clinical trials before we start recommending. Anxiety is an issue, don't get me wrong, but people stop being anxious when they're dead.

[fallenangle]

Yes that's the Newsnight item I was talking about. Reasoned arguments for and against, with a particular emphasis on the political motivation behind this new attempt to enforce masks wearing in England and Wales.

[Golgo]

This kind of uncertainty plays perfectly into the evasive strategy of this government, though, and it serves them so well I can't believe they are not deliberately stoking it. It allows them to tentatively recommend something in the most wishy-washy manner according to whatever they decide to be the 'prevailing science' of the afternoon, without being in any way accountable for whether it works or not. It saw Johnson wriggling out of his care home slur in Wednesday's PMQs with no problem at all.

[Anpanman]

Royal Mail used to provide next day delivery. It was called first class post. Until it was meddled with under the ideological con trick of ‘competition’.

They always have, thing to remember is that First Class isn't and was never guaranteed, if you want a guaranteed service then you want Special Delivery - formally Registered or even Datapost.

They've always operated in the 90% delivered next day which I believe is comparable with the best overseas national postal agencies and pretty bloody good for a non-guaranteed service.

The competition angle is simple, forty years ago you had Royal Mail and nowt else. Then Fedex, UPS, DHL and the like moved in under the relaxation of competition, but these operators are of course profit based so they basically want to take your parcel from Manchester to Birmingham or London or Edinburgh or Chicago, Tokyo or Paris as that's there the profit is, even for Royal Mail, the problem is that Royal Mail has to service the entire nation every day and for a First Class stamp means a one price menu service.

Put it simply, just ask Fedex to take a letter from Cornwall to Lerwick next day for the price of a First Class stamp - and also guarantee it.

[fallenangle]

Yep, and a lot of people on one of those sides who, rather than accepting the years of research and knowledge of the majority of scientists, will instead try to seek out any tiny shred or detractor that might back up the view they want and will cling on to it for dear life. It doesn’t mean their ‘argument’ has any validity. Doesn’t make it equal. Not by a long shot.

And like anti-vaxxers, the unfortunate side effect of this is that it can put others at risk. That said, I like to let the flat-earthers have their fun. They hurt nobody and they’re quite hilarious.

So you're just going to dismiss and denigrate the views of experts who are not towing the new party line because they're in the minority?

This controversy is not new - the efficacy of surgical mask wearing outside a surgical sterile environment has always been open to debate within the medical community. As I explained earlier I've had direct personal experience of these belief sets from two groups of medically qualified professionals.

In 2000 my father was in intensive care for ten days, on and off a ventilator for almost a week of that, at a hospital with strict mask, gown and mask wearing by nurses, doctors and visitors (me). Whilst in the ITC he picked up an intestinal infection and, I was told by the doctors, a secondary lung infection. This meant that after starting to improve he deteriorated again.

He was transferred to another hospital with more modern equipment and facilities. There the philosophy in ITC was different. No wearing of masks by doctors or nurses unless surgically intervening. I'd also picked up a cold, undoubtedly from the ITC waiting room in the first hospital. I'd explained this to the general nurse I'd spoken too and she said when I arrived she'd give a mask.

I wore it and washed it each day but on the third day (I visited everyday) the senior doctor there treating my father, who'd practically ignored me up to that point, came over and told me I didn't need to wear the mask. I explained I was recovering from a cold, and I didn't want to infect my father or anyone else and asked why I'd been given the mask.

With the cold blocking my nose it had made breathing more difficult than normal so I hadn't been comfortable wearing it but I did because it seemed like the right and sensible thing to do. She repeated what she'd said and gave me a look which indicated she was irked by my response and walked off.

Later the two relatives I mentioned in the earlier post, who are long time medical professionals when I asked them about this confirmed that mask wearing was of dubious value outside the sterile environment of an OR.

This all happened 20 years ago and whilst I know the debate and evidence has moved on it is obvious it has still not been resolved either way. It takes a level of arrogance and self-righteousness to slag off the health care professionals and those who take a contrary view on generalised mask wearing. Shaming them just because they think putting the emphasis on strict self-isolation, social distancing and hand cleanliness is far more important is just wrong.

[Dogg Thang]

Dude, with no disrespect I haven’t read most of your post yet because I’m not going to argue this with you and here’s why - when you started this mask thing some time back, you made the case that they were no good and then proceeded to back that up with examples of them being used incorrectly. That said to me that, in some level, you know they make sense but you had to come at it from a whole different angle to find a negative. Like arguing that seat belts are bad because people could choke themselves if they wear them wrong, At that point, the actual case for merit was set aside so there was nothing to be gained by taking that further. We’d just be two strangers arguing on the internet rather than chatting about our shared love of games.

So please know that the post you quoted was not directed at you and was aiming to be much more general. I don’t buy where you’re coming from but my intention wasn’t to lump you in with conspiracy theorists. I can see that it looks that way.