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Canon-Strike IX: Star Trek

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    #76
    Thought that positive opinion might've stoked an immediate reply from you Generations HATERS.

    Maybe I should've said that the ship in it looked like ClipArt or something.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Asura View Post
      Thought that positive opinion might've stoked an immediate reply from you Generations HATERS.

      Maybe I should've said that the ship in it looked like ClipArt or something.
      Ha! Thing is, all the stuff you identify as liking are most of the reasons I don't like it. It's clear we're seeing the same movie, just reacting differently to it and that's totally valid. If you want to see a Next Gen episode up on the big screen and are very happy to have that, Generations absolutely delivers and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

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        #78
        Originally posted by Dogg Thang View Post
        If you want to see a Next Gen episode up on the big screen and are very happy to have that, Generations absolutely delivers and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
        Yeah, I follow you. Admittedly this is also why I like Insurrection. Fundamentally it involves the ship going somewhere, encountering something magical that has a throwaway scientific explanation, solving a mystery which threatens it, dealing with a corrupt starfleet admiral (a Trek staple) and basically re-enacting a Trek version of The Magnificent Seven, when Trek was, historically, based on westerns as a concept - and at the end, the ship leaves with everyone having learned some sort of lesson. It seems reductionist but Insurrection really is just an episode of Trek blown to massive proportions.

        Ugh, we're going to get to Nemesis soon. I'll start sharpening my knives.

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          #79
          Insurrection must be the most TV-like of all of them. I barely remember the details but, every time I watch it, I come away feeling like it was just a regular average Next Gen episode... and like a lot of them, with too much Data. There is a really interesting book on its making by Michael Pillar called FADE IN: The Making of Star Trek Insurrection. Someone here recommended it years ago and it may well have been you but, if not, it's worth a read. It's quite fascinating to get an insight into how that movie ended up the way it did. It wasn't published and so was floating around the internet for free for years but I've just checked and it seems it eventually did get published and is crazy expensive.

          Generations is made a little more movie-like with some of its scope, the addition of Shatner and that opening but, at its heart, yes it feels very true to the Next Gen episodes.

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            #80
            Originally posted by Asura View Post
            Thought that positive opinion might've stoked an immediate reply from you Generations HATERS.

            Maybe I should've said that the ship in it looked like ClipArt or something.


            It was a good post! There’s nothing wrong with a different opinion if it’s backed up with sound reasoning. It actually made me want to re-assess the film. I haven’t seen it for so long, and I remember the Enterprise crash being pretty epic, so a reappraisal is needed on my part.

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              #81
              I always wanted a fifth Star Trek TNG film as Nemesis was adequate in parts, but not really a fitting send-off. It would have been a more personal goodbye for Stewart set as a holodeck adventure against one of the series great personal villains like Khan, in Moriarity.

              The crew looking for a way to recreate Data through the memories of that technology (remember the computer had a record to create an opponent that could defeat Data so the characters were actually linked), using B4.

              After realizing he had been fooled again from 'Ship in the Bottle, Picard would then have to recreate his University marathon win, and be set as a sequel to the 'Tapestry' episode, set back at the Academy, with the entire cast trapped in his simulation cube.

              I had a script written a title and everything "Running through the Holodeck".
              Last edited by CAPCOM; 01-08-2020, 19:30.

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                #82
                Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                I remember the Enterprise crash being pretty epic
                I think it was really brave. In a weird way, the Enterprise (or the ship of any of the shows) is almost like a character, so its destruction is like a big character death.

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                  #83
                  Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
                  Technically starting before the events of Generations, most of the show takes place in its wake with Deep Space Nine beginning from the simple concept of making a Star Trek show that wasn't about exploring the depths of space and instead about a crew aboard an outpost station where the adventures came to them. This formed the majority of the shows life until the overall arc of the Dominion War began and increasingly became the shows focus until it ended in its seventh year. The first show to be produced without Roddenberry's input, it had its own distinct style which contributed to initial debate about its place within the franchise but in the end it became a well received addition.



                  With its own style and plotline that broke from the general approach of the previous shows, how important was Deep Space Nine to the canon and Star Trek's future?

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                    #84
                    It was all a bit wishy washy and aimless for a few years. Then the Jem Hadar appeared. The show established a purpose, and resulted in some truly excellent television.

                    There was a lot of action, but also a lot of heart. Episodes like The Visitor proved that DS9 wasn’t just about the Dominion War arc. But what an arc that was! I really liked the moral ambiguity of some events. It was the type of thing that Trek hadn’t bothered with a great deal before. The long story arc grounded the show with consistent direction, and really helped with the world building.

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                      #85
                      I was up and down a lot on Deep Space Nine. At the start, I felt it was a poor Babylon 5 copy with characters I didn’t like, dark cheap sets, sub par acting and often recycled stories. Some of the characters I never grew to like but others totally turned me around over time and the storytelling really grew and it became its own thing. It still suffered a little from that Trek B-plot thing, where an episode might be: the Dominion invades and Sisko has to fight for the future of the federation, meanwhile Alexander spills milk on his homework and has to hide from Worf by dressing up as a grown up. But I admire what they managed to achieve over the years though and it became a very brave and different Trek.

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                        #86
                        That B5 comparison definitely made DS9 a harder watch in the early years and it always had a fairly unlikeable aesthetic to it as well. The Visitor though is a great call out, one of the best episodes they ever did and largely because it's simply well done as it has little to nothing to do with the show and could easily exist in any other sci-fi show.

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                          #87
                          Star Trek: Voyager
                          Beginning around the time of Generations, the next spin-off show was once again disjointed from the Enterprise stories but returned to the concept of exploring unexplored space as the USS Voyager finds itself cast into the depths of the Delta Quadrant facing a 75 year journey to get back into Federation space. Without Starfleets support and resources and facing the constant temptation to abandon the uniforms principles to speed up potential ways home, the Voyager made it's way across space for seven years eventually following DS9's example of introducing a later years arc but this time in the form of the Borg.




                          At the time Voyager saw the Star Trek franchise reaching towards a downturn in popularity by the time it ended. Looking back, was the show a good addition to the franchise and an important part of the canon?

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                            #88
                            Originally posted by Neon Ignition View Post
                            At the time Voyager saw the Star Trek franchise reaching towards a downturn in popularity by the time it ended. Looking back, was the show a good addition to the franchise and an important part of the canon?
                            Voyager has an ironic popularity on streaming platforms, despite its mixed reception back in the day. I've seen YouTube videos which have suggested, from public stats, that it's the most popular show next to TNG.

                            Voyager, I think, more than anything, was inconsistent. This is going to draw heavily from a recent review video by Renegate Cut, but he made some great points. Firstly, it's a show of two halves, which are roughly punctuated by the point that Kes left the show/Seven of Nine arrived. Apparently, it was originally Ensign Kim who was going to leave to make room for Seven, but then he was voted one of America's most beautiful people in People magazine that year, and the execs mandated that he had to stay.

                            From what I understand, there were three really key aspects to how Voyager turned out, which were due to Rick Berman being showrunner.

                            Firstly, Berman insisted that there would be no long seasonal arcs, and the show would be episodic. He apparently hated Deep Space Nine and disliked that kind of storytelling, believed that people didn't want to watch shows like that where they could "get lost" if they missed something. The first couple of seasons have weak seasonal arcs (1 is about the Maquis crew integrating with the ship, and 2 is about Seska), but the 2nd arc comes to a close very quickly by killing off the involved characters and after that, there are no real arcs other than the big, over-arching goal of getting home.

                            Secondly, Berman insisted that the Starfleet characters give a "military, muted" performance, because he wanted to provide a contrast to the flamboyant aliens they would meet. This results in the characters at times feeling a little stoic.

                            Thirdly, Berman is a difficult person to work with, being a have-a-go writer himself, and the show had many writers, meaning that they all had slightly different takes on the characters. This makes some of the characterisation inconsistent. This was seen as less of a problem due to the first point; Voyager is episodic and continuity was seen as less of a concern.

                            All in all, I like occasionally putting on an episode, but it definitely did become a bore. Many of the plots felt recycled and the constant "we might get home this time!" fakeouts mid-season just became tiresome. But I can't deny, I was a kid at the time and less discerning, so I ate it up.

                            Going back to my very first point - ironically this could be the reason Voyager is so popular on streaming. You can grab any episode and just watch it; no preamble, no context. It's both the show's biggest problem but also its strength.

                            Oh, and we never got to see Tom Paris re-unite with his father. DENIED.

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                              #89
                              I have a suspicion that its popularity could be down to the fact that many people skipped it or dropped it back in the day and are just catching up on what they missed.

                              For all the reasons you give, I think Voyager is utter rubbish. It started with a great concept that was strangled immediately due to wanting to follow the same format as Next Gen and almost deliberately making its characters boring. From the outset, it took no advantage of the setup and, in the process, felt plain wrong. The idea that you would mix a ship of Starfleet members with a crew of terrorists, place them somewhere where they had no access to starfleet, to repairs, to equipment, to that structure and that they would, right from moment one, just run like a normal Starfleet ship with the terrorist first officer taking orders just never felt right. The ship should have been a mess of scavenged parts by the end of season one and all structure should have broken down and been rebuilt. That was the premise set up in the pilot and that would have been interesting.

                              Instead, we got Next Gen lite where everything had already been done better in that show.

                              Turns out all the things I was hoping for on that show were pitched time and time again by Ron Moore and rejected by Berman. Years later, we rebooted Galactica and put all those ideas in. The first couple of seasons of Battlestar are really what Voyager could have been.

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                                #90
                                Interesting points.

                                I agree it should have been a right mess for the first couple of years, with respect and trust earnt over a long time, and not resolved within an episode. There wasn’t enough desperation within the situation. Not enough episodes where they had to sacrifice principles just to survive, and the moral crisis they faced from this.

                                Ironically, these were touched on during some of the strongest episodes. The Year of Hell should have been Voyager’s entire first season, and the basic themes of Equinox could have been a regular during the show.

                                Asura is correct about the dip-in, dip-out nature. It’s a huge strength (I’ve been watching random episodes recently) and also a huge weakness. You just never felt like anything really carried any weight. It was always wrapped up in a little box and placed back in the cupboard. The show also suffered from the inevitability caveat. Any episode centred around getting home you KNEW would result in failure. It had to, or there was no show. The only interest was seeing how the failure played out, which was contrived and depressing.

                                Having said that, there were some very good episodes. As a history student, I found the themes of Living Witness to be a really interesting analysis of historical interpretation, and the role of ‘truth’ in the control of a society. Distant Origins is, similarly, a very interesting story, that also touches on the issue of racism, in addition to its sci-fi concept. Counterpoint is a very engaging episode that could have worked in TNG. Tuvix was a fascinating concept, played with heart by the actor, and the Hope and Fear season closer was a look at the lengths someone will go to for revenge. There’s several other standouts that I really enjoyed.

                                The big event episodes were largely decent. The Borg stuff was all pretty good, the one where they ended up in 20th century Earth was fine, and the Hirogen episodes were entertaining.

                                Character-wise, the show was massively stronger after the introduction of Seven of Wad, and far more waddish. Not that Jeri Ryan’s figure was all that the character was about. She was, essentially, another Data. Getting in touch with her humanity, etc. It sounds cynical, because that was a big success of TNG, and it probably was, but Ryan is a very decent actress, and added quality to the cast.

                                The Doctor is a good character (but also very much like Seven), with Robert Picardo NEVER looking like he was phoning it in. Tim Russ is decent, but never really had much to do, apart from providing a straight man for the jibes of others. Chakotay is passable, but once again, never really shone. That spirit guide stuff is terrible television, I really hated that. Paris has a redemptive arc, and I quite like the actor, but he pretty much levelled off in later years. Neelix never really developed either. And as for Harry Kim? The running joke about him accomplishing all kinds of things - good and bad - for the benefit of the crew - and get still being an Ensign - just about sums him up.

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