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The Amiga 1200: What if it could have ran Doom?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Brad View Post
    The business people at commodore screwed the entire company basically. The A4000 was actually worse than the 3000 in a number of areas. It wasn’t engineering that messed up.
    Yep. No scandoubler/VGA output on the A4k?! What were they thinking?

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      #17
      Originally posted by Brad View Post
      The business people at commodore screwed the entire company basically.
      From what I've read -- it was the American arm of the business that did a bad job and destroyed the company.

      It's a big shame that Commodore didn't manage to create a relevant follow up to the A500 that could compete with what the PC was doing at the time. When I thought about Doom on the SNES, Jaguar and 32X, it really highlighted how the A1200 was very limited tech that wasn't designed to run the pseudo-3D games that had become popular at the time.

      So whereas the A500 had been a groundbreaking computer for its time, the A1200 was an underwhelming computer that didn't bring anything cutting edge to the table. If only the people behind the A1200 had managed to deliver clever tech that managed to compete with the PC, it might have been a hugely popular machine. I think Doom running well on the A1200 would have been a killer app that convinced people to buy the computer.

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        #18
        Important to remember that Doom didn’t come out until more than a year after the A1200 launched. No way for commodore to ensure the A1200 could run a game that hadn’t been invented.

        Commodore America was commodore. They were an American company. They had the opportunity to do what was right but didn’t,

        I don’t think Doom would have saved them.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Brad View Post
          Important to remember that Doom didn’t come out until more than a year after the A1200 launched. No way for commodore to ensure the A1200 could run a game that hadn’t been invented.
          Doom -- and the software tech behind it -- didn't just magically appear in 1993. No, people had been working on that sort pf pseudo-3D tech for years. Doom was the result of many years of step by step development to reach a point where something like Doom was achievable.

          I think the Atari Jaguar -- however much some people think it's a joke -- is key to what I'm talking about. The Jaguar(known as 'Panther early' on), had been in development since around 1990. The Jaguar's tech design is quite complicated and innovative, which made it a relevant machine for its time because it could not only run polygon-based games well, but also pseudo-3D experiences, as seen with Alien vs. Predator and Doom.

          The tech people behind the Jaguar managed to design a machine that could run an excellent port of Doom for a retail price of $250. For a machine that was developed in the early '90s and released in 1993, that was an impressive achievement.

          So what were Commodore and the designers behind the A1200 up to? They completely failed to deliver a computer that could convincingly run the new wave of pseudo-3D games people were raving about, let alone proper 3D titles that felt cutting edge.

          So whereas the A500 had been quite groundbreaking tech for its time, delivering graphics & audio that really felt cutting edge in the mid to late 80s, the A1200 didn't deliver anything groundbreaking and cutting edge in the graphics and audio department. Commodore completely failed to deliver a computer that was relevant for its time. Any computer or console should to be designed to be relevant for many years. The A1200 wasn't anything special -- even upon its release in 1992.

          When you also note how the Super FX 2 chip can run a reasonable SNES version of Doom, it really highlights how ridiculously weak the A1200 tech was in the context of the time. A cheap 3D chip in a SNES cart can run a pseudo-3D game better than an A1200 running Gloom. There can be no excuses for how insufficient the A1200 hardware was.

          Of course, some people might have a fondness for the A1200, because it could run A500 games and some AGA games were decent. But I'm talking about how the A1200 didn't manage to be a relevant machine because the hardware was completely inadequate by what were the cutting edge standards of the time.

          I will always be a huge fan of the A500, so I'm very much pro Amiga when it comes to how special the brand was during the 16-bit era. It just pisses me off to think about how Commodore squandered the potential to make a great 32-bit follow up to the A500.
          Last edited by Leon Retro; 04-07-2020, 10:13.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Leon Retro View Post
            Of course, some people might have a fondness for the A1200, because it could run A500 games and some AGA games were decent. But I'm talking about how the A1200 didn't manage to be a relevant machine because the hardware was completely inadequate by what were the cutting edge standards of the time.
            You can count me in as one of those. The AMIGA 1200 could do so much more than the consoles and I liked the BC with the 500. I've never seen the need to compare computers or microcomputers to the consoles myself. Where Commodore did mess up was with the CD32 and where that system needed at have better 2D and 3D hardware support and a better sound chip, since it was a console

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              #21
              Originally posted by Team Andromeda View Post
              You can count me in as one of those. The AMIGA 1200 could do so much more than the consoles and I liked the BC with the 500.
              I remember buying a A1200 in 1993 and being really disappointed with it. I'd enjoyed the A500 since 1989, so Amiga gaming wasn't anything new to me. The A1200 didn't give me any games that made me think "wow.. this is cutting edge."

              When you look at the A1200 objectively -- you can see that little thought went into its architecture. It wasn't doing anything groundbreaking or cutting edge for a computer that should have been relevant from 1992 onwards. The tech wasn't impressive in late 1992 -- and certainly far from impressive between 1993-1994 when gaming had really moved away from 2D. People were expecting more advanced 3D and pseudo-3D games, but the A1200 didn't have the power to deliver that.

              The Jaguar version of Doom is extremely impressive next to the PC version -- and you're talking about a $250 console. The people behind the Jaguar obviously knew what they were doing, even if the machine ended up failing for various reasons. At least Doom and AvP show that the Jag hardware was cutting edge.

              If the A1200 had been able to run something like Doom in the same convincing way as the Jaguar did, then it would have been a relevant, cutting edge computer. I have no idea why the A1200 ended up being such an inadequate piece of tech for the time, but I do think it's a huge shame. The Amiga brand deserved so much better than the half-hearted A1200 that should have been capable of so much more.

              From a retro context -- the A1200 can be appreciated in some ways, because you're not comparing it to other tech. But at the time, there was much more clever tech being made that made the A1200 look pretty weak and pointless. It's a shame that the people behind the A1200 didn't have the same foresight with regard to gaming as the people behind the Jaguar did. If the A1200 had been able to run Doom like the Jaguar does... jaws really would have hit the floor. The A1200 would have been the 32-bit follow up to the A500 that the brand deserved.
              Last edited by Leon Retro; 04-07-2020, 12:31.

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                #22
                Of course, even though the Jaguar could run Doom well for a lot less money than a PC at the time, nobody bought them, so clearly being able to run Doom was not enough to ensure any kind of success. So I guess the answer to “what if the A1200 could run Doom” would be “not much difference”.

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                  #23
                  I think the Amiga was pretty cack, tbh. About 90% of games on it were waaaaank.

                  I'm glad it never had DOOM. I'm not glad it had GLOOM (absolute toilet blockage caused entirely by gaseous stools).

                  The Amiga was never forward-thinking enough to house a legend like DOOM. It was much more comfy doing ST ports with extra colours and maybe an extra channel of sound.

                  I had one back in the day and had LOADS of games for it (many pirates, too) and I just could never 100% fully warm to it, plus it got REALLY annoying when using that bloody 512k RAM expansion, any slight tremor would loosen the bastard.

                  Thank god the MD came when it did. Can't think of much worse than playing most Amiga arcade ports. They mainly take all the sugar out.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by mikejenkins_uk View Post
                    Of course, even though the Jaguar could run Doom well for a lot less money than a PC at the time, nobody bought them, so clearly being able to run Doom was not enough to ensure any kind of success. So I guess the answer to “what if the A1200 could run Doom” would be “not much difference”.
                    I don't think Doom sold that well on any of the consoles or made people buy them. I doubt it sold the N64 or PS. I do agree with Leon that Commodore needed to more R&D for better 3D and 2D support, but I felt that was let down the CD32 and not so much the 1200

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by JazzFunk View Post
                      I think the Amiga was pretty cack, tbh. About 90% of games on it were waaaaank.

                      I'm glad it never had DOOM. I'm not glad it had GLOOM (absolute toilet blockage caused entirely by gaseous stools).

                      The Amiga was never forward-thinking enough to house a legend like DOOM. It was much more comfy doing ST ports with extra colours and maybe an extra channel of sound.

                      I had one back in the day and had LOADS of games for it (many pirates, too) and I just could never 100% fully warm to it, plus it got REALLY annoying when using that bloody 512k RAM expansion, any slight tremor would loosen the bastard.

                      Thank god the MD came when it did. Can't think of much worse than playing most Amiga arcade ports. They mainly take all the sugar out.
                      The original Amiga was about the most forward thinking computer that has ever been made. Pre emptive multitasking alone makes it a quantum leap in home computer designe. Using a sprite for the mouse pointer was a stroke of genius as by doing that they eliminated bucket loads of rendering code needed by other mouse systems. Just look at how crap and jerky the mouse pointer was on other platforms at the time. An expansion bus so versatile you could put a hardware x86 emulator in there. Draggale screens with different resolutions.

                      Now the A1200 was not what the designers wanted. They were designing the AAA chipset which would have made the machine more than a match for PCs, and without having to buy extra graphics cards.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by JazzFunk View Post
                        I think the Amiga was pretty cack, tbh. About 90% of games on it were waaaaank.

                        I'm glad it never had DOOM. I'm not glad it had GLOOM (absolute toilet blockage caused entirely by gaseous stools).
                        The Amiga had a decent amount of good games but hardly any A1200 specific ones. I actually quite like Gloom, it's a fun shooter (although a Wolfenstein clone rather than a Doom clone). Alien Breed 3D was pretty good too, it had a more advanced engine than Doom and a really good atmosphere but looked 100x worse than Doom did. But these were catchup efforts to something it could never achieve without a lot of expansion.

                        In 1995 I could have spent £300 on an accelerator etc for my A1200, or sell it and spend the total on a by-then far faster PC, and the deciding factor was that nobody was making any games for Amigas any more. I didn't get a proper console until the Playstation a couple of years later which was still beyond any reasonably priced home computer could manage.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by mikejenkins_uk View Post
                          Of course, even though the Jaguar could run Doom well for a lot less money than a PC at the time, nobody bought them, so clearly being able to run Doom was not enough to ensure any kind of success. So I guess the answer to “what if the A1200 could run Doom” would be “not much difference”.
                          I do think being able to run Doom style pseudo-3D games pretty well would have made the A1200 more attractive. I remember how much of a big thing Doom style games were back then -- they got people really excited after the 16-bit era. Top quality pseudo-3D games would have attracted people to the A1200 like impressive 2D games had attracted people to the A500.

                          I can clearly remember the A1200 & CD32 situation and thinking what they were offering was very lacklustre. Whereas the PC market was very lively with cutting edge games being created that showed the future of gaming, the A1200 just didn't have the muscle to compete well with the PC. Commodore failed to deliver 32-bit tech with innovative design that benefited 3D and pseudo-3D experiences. The Jaguar, despite its commercial failure, managed to deliver relevant hardware for the time. The Jag hardware with a few tweaks would have been truly special.

                          I think the A1200 architecture should have been similar to the Jaguar's. The Jag's hardware had issues for various reasons, but at least it could run 3D, and especially pseudo-3D games pretty well once a coder got their head around the hardware. A $250 console designed in the early '90s had games like Iron Soldier, Alien vs Predator and Doom, which were far more impressive and cutting edge than anything found on the A1200.

                          I started this topic because I was thinking about how important Doom(and this style of game) were for many years in the '90s. Thinking about how the Super FX 2 chip enabled a reasonable SNES port of Doom, and how the Jaguar runs a great port of Doom, it really highlighted how insuffient the A1200 tech was for pseudo-3D games. Commodore did a terrible job of delivering a 32-bit computer that had relevant tech for its time. There was nothing clever or innovative about the A1200 architecture.


                          Originally posted by JazzFunk View Post
                          I think the Amiga was pretty cack, tbh. About 90% of games on it were waaaaank.

                          I'm glad it never had DOOM. I'm not glad it had GLOOM (absolute toilet blockage caused entirely by gaseous stools).

                          The Amiga was never forward-thinking enough to house a legend like DOOM. It was much more comfy doing ST ports with extra colours and maybe an extra channel of sound.
                          No... only 80% of A500 games were cack.

                          But the other 20% comprised top quality games across all genres. I have really fond memories of enjoying the Amiga's best games. I still think some of them stand up really well today.

                          It was just a sad fact that standards for computer gaming in the UK were all over the place, so lots of absolute rubbish was released in the '80s and early '90s. You had to be very cautious when buying a game.

                          When I think of "Gloom", it annoys me that the A1200 hardware couldn't run something better than that. It was a joke next to what the PC and a console like the Jaguar could do. Commodore delivered a 32-bit computer that just didn't have the muscle to compete and be relevant.


                          Originally posted by Team Andromeda View Post
                          I do agree with Leon that Commodore needed to more R&D for better 3D and 2D support, but I felt that was let down the CD32 and not so much the 1200
                          The computing market was still very different to the console market back then. I remember how PC gaming was focused on cutting edge Adventure/RPG titles, pseudo-3D experiences, and RTS games.

                          Doom(and similar games) would have been a big thing on the A1200, like it was on the PC. But the A1200 hardware didn't have any clever design features that made running Doom possible. Commodore's R&D behind the A1200 completely failed to deliver a relevant(for the time) piece of hardware. If the people behind the Jaguar could deliver architecture suited to running decent 3D & pseudo-3D games, then there are no excuses for Commodore's R&D people. It's like there was little thought put into the A1200.

                          If the A1200 had been more capable at running the new wave of pseudo-3D games, then that would have benefited the CD32, which was simply a consolised A1200. The CD32 should have been able to perform like the Jaguar when it comes to 3D and pseudo-3D. You could even make the case that the A1200 architecture should have trumped the Jaguar's, seeing it was a £400 computer and there was already a healthy Amiga market that would be keen to buy a new powerful 32-bit Amiga.

                          I will always have a lot of fondness for the A500 and its best games, but for me, the A1200 was a huge letdown that felt far from cutting edge. It was very much an irrelevant piece of hardware for its time. If only Commodore's R&D had managed to create a computer that did the A500's legacy proud.

                          Originally posted by Brad View Post
                          The original Amiga was about the most forward thinking computer that has ever been made. Pre emptive multitasking alone makes it a quantum leap in home computer designe. Using a sprite for the mouse pointer was a stroke of genius as by doing that they eliminated bucket loads of rendering code needed by other mouse systems. Just look at how crap and jerky the mouse pointer was on other platforms at the time. An expansion bus so versatile you could put a hardware x86 emulator in there. Draggale screens with different resolutions.
                          Yeah, the OG Amiga hardware was truly cutting edge and highly innovative. It was a brilliant computer for its time -- and people managed to get more and more out of it over its lifetime.

                          I used the A500 for creating graphics, music, DTP, animation, making games(AMOS), and gaming. It delivered in all areas.

                          Originally posted by Brad View Post
                          They were designing the AAA chipset which would have made the machine more than a match for PCs, and without having to buy extra graphics cards.
                          I've heard about the AAA chipset, but I need to look into it more. It's such a shame that the A1200 ended up being such an underwhelming piece of kit, when there were people in R&D who would have made it very relevant hardware that impressed people.
                          Last edited by Leon Retro; 05-07-2020, 18:27.

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                            #28
                            Commodore USA and Germany didn't like the Amiga being sold as a gaming oriented system which had proven to be successful in the UK. But it had been designed as a games system but with extra RAM did make a pretty good computer too. Retaining OCS/ECS compatibilty wasn't helpful and planar graphics wasn't ideal for a WIMP GUI they really should have added more chunky support.
                            I suppose when the A1200 was in development arcade games and rival computer systems were still 2d and RAM prices were quite high. And price was always going to be a factor given it's probably why folk bought a ST or Amiga versus a Mac or PC.

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                              #29
                              I agree with JazzFunk. The Amiga was an amazing home computer, ahead of it's time but far from a great games machine if you liked fast arcade type gaming. The PC Engine, MD and S Famicom / Snes made you pity friends with STs and Amigas alone, because you had them too and knew the score.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by CMcK View Post
                                Commodore USA and Germany didn't like the Amiga being sold as a gaming oriented system which had proven to be successful in the UK.
                                I think that was the attitude in the early days of the Amiga, but with the success of the £399 A500 in the UK and across Europe, Commodore USA should have woken up and realised that the gaming side of computers was also very important.

                                Originally posted by CMcK View Post
                                I suppose when the A1200 was in development arcade games and rival computer systems were still 2d and RAM prices were quite high. And price was always going to be a factor given it's probably why folk bought a ST or Amiga versus a Mac or PC.
                                Away from the arcades and consoles -- PC gaming was gradully delivering much more advanced Adventure/RPG games, pseudo-3D graphics, and RTS titles. So PC developers -- and the PC community in general -- had a clear view of what next gen computer games were all about. I'm sure that many UK & Euro devs must have shared that vision.

                                It wasn't down to luck that the Jaguar could run Doom really well. No, the hardware designers knew that pseudo-3D and 3D games were the future, so they developed cutting edge tech would be relevant for the new wave of games. The same with the designers of the 3DO. Both machines were released in 1993, so would have been in development around the same time as the A1200.

                                When you look at the A1200 -- it's clear that it doesn't have any innovative features that would have helped 3D and pseudo-3D to run well. It feels like the designers didn't think about what sort of hardware features developers would need from 1993 onwards. So the A1200 tech was very lacking when it came to running the new wave of PC and 3D console games that would excite and inspire people.

                                When it comes to RAM, the 3DO has 3MB altogether, so that wouldn't have been an issue for the A1200. The huge issue was not having an architecture/chipset that was focused on running the new wave of pseudo-3D games. The A1200 should have been a computer full of innovative design that enabled it to compete with PC gaming, in the way consoles use clever design to boost performance. The $250 Atari Jaguar being able to run an impressive port of Doom is a clear example of this.

                                Maybe Commodore and the Amiga brand would have lasted longer if the A1200 had really impressed people. It's such a shame that the 32-bit follow up to the A500 ended up being such a lackluster piece of hardware.
                                Last edited by Leon Retro; 05-07-2020, 21:55.

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