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United Kingdom VI: Summer Lovin'

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    The criticism of Starmer is by people who don’t understand that you have to try and balance your ideas with listening to, and appealing to, as many people as possible. It’s no good setting your stall out as ‘us and them’. That alienates potential voters immediately. Be professional, and listen, but also try to win people over in the long term with reasoned and articulate arguments. That takes time, and a realistic attitude, which can sometimes involve working with elements of the press that you don’t like.

    A lot of the Corbynites in the party (I refuse to use the term far left, because it’s bollocks), can’t accept that he hasn’t tried to continue in precisely the same vein. Corbyn’s programme of reform was largely excellent, but too radical for most people to accept implementing in one swoop. It takes time and step processes to win people over to change. Once Brexit is fully underway, that distraction can’t be used to turn the next election into a one-issue debate again, and Starmer carries more respect than Corbyn. The Tories and the turd press (like the Express) don’t seem to be able to touch him. He lacks a killer instinct at the moment, but that is a dangerous path to tread in terms on public opinion during a pandemic.

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      Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
      Once Brexit is fully underway, that distraction can’t be used to turn the next election into a one-issue debate again, and Starmer carries more respect than Corbyn.
      You're wrong on this - the angle will be only the Tories can be trusted not to rejoin the EU and any economic fallout from Brexit can now be blamed on Covid-19

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        Maybe. Maybe not. Starmer hasn’t made any overtures about rejoining. Skilled argument will see the crap economy blamed on Brexit AND a shambolic handling of the pandemic. Any sniff of austerity should be blasted into space with reference to the last round of pointless, counterproductive and ineffective cuts.

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          Corbyn wasn't a remainer either, but that didn't make any difference to how the Tories framed things.

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            Starmer is a good guy. Just watch McLibel.

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              COVID is probably the biggest threat to the Tories, as time goes on more and more people will be affected and Johnson at his cronies can't continue much longer on the idea that they were caught off guard by it. Each decision going forward carries responsibility on them and they seem to still think that the same old campaign approaches work with it. They forget how many years they have left till the next election so it's a long road for their support to crumble and no-one around to blame. Now, if Johnson plans to jump out the PM seat by the next election having corruptly made his £££ then he's got nothing to lose from continuing as he is but if he plans on sticking around then things could get sticky for him in time.

              It's why Keir is smart to be doing what he's doing. The UK is an inherently right wing nation, sticking with a hard left agenda is a death sentence for him and Labour so cruising closer to the middle is smart, that and we're so many years from an election that a very quiet track record is good as it keeps him out of touch of the Tories until it's the right time to ramp things up. I can't remember who it was but there was an ex-Tory MP on LBC a few months ago being asked about the GE result for Boris and he basically said it was a great result for the party but they'd be ruined at the next one because they'd been in power too long and too many of the same things that took them down post-Thatcher were coalescing within the party again as a result

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                Originally posted by prinnysquad View Post
                The criticism of Starmer is by people who don’t understand that you have to try and balance your ideas with listening to, and appealing to, as many people as possible. It’s no good setting your stall out as ‘us and them’. That alienates potential voters immediately. Be professional, and listen, but also try to win people over in the long term with reasoned and articulate arguments. That takes time, and a realistic attitude, which can sometimes involve working with elements of the press that you don’t like.

                A lot of the Corbynites in the party (I refuse to use the term far left, because it’s bollocks), can’t accept that he hasn’t tried to continue in precisely the same vein. Corbyn’s programme of reform was largely excellent, but too radical for most people to accept implementing in one swoop. It takes time and step processes to win people over to change. Once Brexit is fully underway, that distraction can’t be used to turn the next election into a one-issue debate again, and Starmer carries more respect than Corbyn. The Tories and the turd press (like the Express) don’t seem to be able to touch him. He lacks a killer instinct at the moment, but that is a dangerous path to tread in terms on public opinion during a pandemic.
                It really is a sad state of affairs but you need the UK press behind you if you want to win an election. Corbyn refused to play the game on any level and this massively effected his ability to reach out past his core group of supporters. It really didn't help when your actively helping the press by ignoring negative aspects off your party's image either. Ever since Brown Labour has been painted as a financially irresponsible party and things like free WiFi for all was like handing the papers and his detractors a gift wrapped present. Its crazy really how they have this image when the opposition has wiped far more from our economy than brown ever did Billions from Brexit and a recession worse than the global banking crisis all under their watch.

                The Torys always seem to regularly screw up massively recently we have had:

                A billion pounds worth of PPE not delivered from company's that where not specialists in this area, Sweet wholesalers, Pest control, Furniture manufactures to name just a few? or company's with no assets or proven track records given ridiculous sums of money, or worst still Company's that where classed as Dormant, this one really should of brought down massive parts of the government as none of these company's went through the proper tender process but its barely even a scandal.

                A quarter of a million pounds of defective PPE delivered to the NHS in a quango scheme directly linked to Liz Truss

                Ridiculous expensive test and trace schemes that failed massively.

                But none of the above matters because we're distracted by Major Tom raising some money for the NHS, lets just ignore the fact that the amount of money going missing and wasted due to the above Dwarfs what was raised.
                Last edited by Lebowski; 19-08-2020, 10:36.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                  Corbyn wasn't a remainer either, but that didn't make any difference to how the Tories framed things.
                  No but they had him over a barrel in terms of public perception. He also dithered on his own policy.

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                    As much as I didn't agree with everything that Jeremy Corbyn was bringing to the table, I felt that he was a genuine person who actually wanted to serve the public for the greater good rather than to line his own pockets. That in itself is commendable, because it's been a long time since I've seen anyone in that position where I felt that (probably John Major). I also felt he came across well in any situation where people actually listened to him and not what was being reported about him. Particularly in Prime Minister's Questions, he came across as being a calm and responsible adult up against a bunch of immature jeering incompetents. It was hard to hear any of that when the entire press system was against him, though.

                    Keir Starmer just seems like another generic suit who has been given an opportunity to shoot fish in a barrel and is sitting there offering fairly milquetoast criticisms of one of the most incompetent governments this country has seen for decades. His entire campaign slogan might as well just be "I'm not Boris Johnson" as I think that's the reason 90% of people will end up voting for him.

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                      As much as I liked some of what Corbyn pledged, he is no longer Labour leader.
                      Everybody needs to move on if we're going to get these shysters out.

                      It's like the bit in Aliens where Burke says "You had your chance, Gorman!"

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                        Oh yeah, I wasn't a loyalist to him anyway, I just wish Starmer would stop being such a piece of wet lettuce when he could completely kick the government in the balls at every turn.

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                          My prediction is that in the four years we have left of the tories, they'll ghostwalk in legislation that will make it increasingly difficult to vote anything other than Tory.

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                            Originally posted by MartyG View Post
                            any government of any flavour with such a majority is never going to legislate for something that weakens that power. These things are only ever called for by oppositions.
                            That's the thing that's making me feel so helpless. There are still plenty of people who think the Government are doing a good job, either because their newspaper tells them or it ties in with their Brexit-related beliefs.

                            An interesting thread on reform in the UK by the same guy who does the #TheWeekInTory summaries, where he asks followers how many of a 15 point list they broadly agree on.


                            All of which seem great and noble, but none would ever be addressed by this current Government, because of the reason MartyG said and especially as Johnson has got rid of anyone not following his voting orders, leaving a tight group of chancers, yes men and corrupt swindlers, who would never implement these or claim they already are ("you've eaten two thirds of my Mars bar!" "No, I've given you a third!")

                            1. Action on inequality.
                            Despite being the 7th biggest economy, we have 9 of the 10 most deprived areas in Western Europe. Policies to address this will alleviate so many issues our citizens face, from jobs to health, and housing and education.

                            2. A policy for a green economy.
                            A cleaner future and better jobs, via wide-scale investment in renewables, infrastructure for charging points, home insulation and green technology / bank and employment.

                            3. Housing
                            Really significant investment in public housing, plus a major review of the rental sector – rent control, rights for people renting, etc. UK housing is mad and must be reformed. It helps owners and renters to do this.

                            4. Tax
                            Root-and-branch reform of the UK tax rules, which are currently designed for (and by) tax-evaders to build in loopholes they can exploit. It is desperately unfair that the very rich can simply opt-out of their contribution to society, and it has to be fixed.

                            5. Wealth tax
                            Land value and / or wealth tax, to shift the balance away from taxing decent, productive work, and towards taxing the exploitation of assets. You are taxed for doing something useful, while the very wealthy escape tax for hoarding vital assets.

                            6. Reform of Parliament
                            Because it is now the largest in the world except China (a nation 21x bigger). Most parliamentarians aren’t elected, and it is horrifyingly ineffective. Making govt more representative and fairer will bring about improvements through all of society.

                            7. Reform of voting
                            Because FPTP is incredibly undemocratic and unrepresentative, compared with practically any other voting system. Why should your vote be worth less than other peoples’? Why should your opinion mean nothing because your MP is from another party?

                            8. Work and training
                            A new, properly funded vocational education choice, plus a life-long retraining service for a world where “jobs for life” no longer exist. We can’t abandon people who, aged 50, find their job has vanished. Retraining is better than paying benefits.

                            9. A national childcare service
                            Allowing lower paid workers and women greater freedom to work / earn, giving security and early education to kids, and ensuring carers are properly paid and treated well

                            10. Universal Basic Income
                            A commission to examine UBI, to face the challenge when automation makes millions of jobs obsolete. It's been trialled in Finland, and productivity didn't drop. And most people agree mass automation is coming. We should be ready for it.

                            11. Modern defence
                            A review of defence, focusing on proper care for veterans (a “patriotic welfare policy”), and a “Digital defence force” to protect UK interests against malign overseas influence and digital attacks

                            12. International
                            Reinstate Dept for International Development (or something very similar) and restate our international responsibilities and values – this includes “soft power” that rebuilds UK’s tarnished reputation

                            13. Corruption
                            A review of political funding, seeking a way to achieve fair, cheap, and representative public funding, and ban all other forms of funding. “Donations” lead to corruption. It must end.

                            14. Action on tax-havens.
                            And work with other countries to prevent digital giants from avoiding their responsibilities (and helping to wipe out high street jobs) by shifting money around the globe to avoid tax.

                            15. Action on media ownership
                            We are a nation which suffers some of the worst misinformation in the developed world. It cannot be right that so few people have so much control over what we get to hear about our government.

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                              Germany may be teeing up extending Furlough up to two years

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                                Originally posted by Hirst View Post
                                Oh yeah, I wasn't a loyalist to him anyway, I just wish Starmer would stop being such a piece of wet lettuce when he could completely kick the government in the balls at every turn.
                                Sorry, not you specifically, just the feeling that some people are going Starmer is crap and others are going "but Corbyn said blah blah", when everybody should be uniting.

                                Starmer has been piling into Johnson in PMQs, and always has a rebuttal to Johnson's pre-written Calvin Klein and flip-flop jokes, but I've stopped watching because Johnson does anything other than answer the questions. "I think the honourable gentleman will find we're already doing that, unlike the opposition! Am I right chums? Wiffle waffle?!" *Conservatives cheer*

                                I don't think Labour would change FPTP either, but as MartyG and Cassius_Smoke say, the Conservatives definitely won't, making it harder to get them out, whilst they stuff the House of Lords with their husbands, Brexiteers and Russian Oligarchs.
                                Last edited by QualityChimp; 19-08-2020, 11:50.

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