United Kingdom VI: Summer Lovin'

[QualityChimp]

Not a single Tory voted against the Internal Markets Bill.

The 7 principles in public life that our MPs are supposed to follow include: Selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, Openness honesty and leadership.

Anybody seeing that of late?

The other problem with cronyism is that although you are surrounded by "yes men", you also push out the experienced people.
That's why you've got these inexperienced people in charge of departments they can't properly manage like Matt Hancock and Priti Patel, mismanaging their areas of "expertise" and key staff quitting, saying bullying is rife.

That's why they're dishing out jobs to their mates.

Paul Dacre, ex-Editor of the Daily Mail and responsible for the slew of anti-migrant headlines is tipped to become head of Ofcom.

Charles Moore, former editor of The Daily Telegraph, The Spectator and The Sunday Telegraph was once fined for not paying his TV licence because he objected to Jonathan Ross not being sacked. He's been tipped as the new boss of the BBC.

Former Sainsbury's supermarket chief executive Mike Coupe is to take over as director of Covid-19 testing at England's Test and Trace agency.

I don't get the whole "whipping" thing. We, as a "democracy", vote for a party, consisting of many MPs.
Not the opinion of one person. It makes a mockery of the process if they threaten them with the whip every time they speak against Johnson/Cummings/Gove.

There are going to be some people who are loving the gravy train, like Dido Harding falling upwards into better roles, but there must be some MPs, even Conservatives, that joined to make their constituency a better place for its people.
How do they look in the mirror knowing that they just do as they're told?

[Cassius_Smoke]

We are walking down a bad road. I don't think I've seen democracy being stripped back as fast. I dread to think what 2025 will be like living here.

[QualityChimp]

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[Golgo]

I think there's a basic sickness in the national political psyche, wherein self-interest, thuggishness, disregard and a total F.U. attitude towards accountability are seen as strengths. There are loads of people for whom 'getting away with it' and sticking up the middle finger are appealing and entertaining, whereas acting decently and responsibly are seen as weaknesses - a mug's game. Johnson, Trump et al. play into that - dare I say it - very cleverly indeed.

[MartyG]

Former Sainsbury's supermarket chief executive Mike Coupe is to take over as director of Covid-19 testing at England's Test and Trace agency.

That is probably not a bad appointment given the current logistics are completely broken.

I don't get the whole "whipping" thing. We, as a "democracy", vote for a party, consisting of many MPs.
Not the opinion of one person

You've just explained whipping with what you've written, it's done so that votes are inline with the party and manifesto, rather that the opinion of one person - this is why May had so many issues, because towards the end she was completely unable to whip her MPs effectively.

However, you've mistaken what you're voting for. You may personally be voting for a individual because they're a member of a certain party, but that isn't what you're actually voting for, which is an individual MP to respresent your interests in parliament, hence representative democracy. Whipping isn't about curtailing the party, it's about curtailing individuals.

[QualityChimp]

Yeah, basically it's broken.

[MartyG]

I'm not sure I'd agree that whips mean the parliamentry system is broken; if an MP chooses to represent a party, that comes with certain caveats, in that you support the party line. That individual is perfectly entitled to stand in an election as an independent and so not have to follow the party whip - they know when they're elected on a Labour, Tory or any other party ticket that they will be expected to tow the party line, hence be whipped.

MPs are still very much able to ignore the whips, but they can expect to be expelled from the party if they do so - they will still remain an MP. If people voted for them simply because they wear a blue rosette, they might not be re-elected, so if you want an independent MP not tied to party whips, stop voting for candidates tied to mainstream parties to represent you.

[Golgo]

Whipping is absolutely fine and so is the right to defy the whip and take the consequences when your government goes rogue. The thing that's broken here is not the whipping system but the fact that more and more Conservatives carp about defying the whip but when it comes down to voting are too amorally self-interested to do so.

[MartyG]

The government hasn't gone rogue though - it's setting out to do exactly what it said it would do in the election, one of the big things that made thousands of Labours abandon them to achieve their dream - leave the EU - the MPs were elected on that ticket and should expect to tow the party line on it.

Ultimately the voters decided that's what they wanted and whilst I'd agree there's a lot of self-interest in politics, a lot of that comes down to why there are safe seats: People voting en-mass because they like the colour blue or the colour red, regardless of whether when elected that MP would truly represent their best interests.

It should be that MPs represent country -> constituents -> party -> self interests in that order, but that doesn't get you relected.

[Mayhem]

If people voted for them simply because they wear a blue rosette

Willing to bet the majority of voters do that for all parties, doesn't matter who the person standing is.

[Golgo]

The government hasn't gone rogue though - it's setting out to do exactly what it said it would do in the election, one of the big things that made thousands of Labours abandon them to achieve their dream - leave the EU - the MPs were elected on that ticket and should expect to tow the party line on it.

Elected to "leave the EU", yes, but with that over-ready deal, which of course has transpired to be a lie. Therefore it's gone rogue.

[MartyG]

Willing to bet the majority of voters do that for all parties, doesn't matter who the person standing is.

Yes, I just couldn't be arsed to type in all the different rosette colours.

[MartyG]

Elected to "leave the EU", yes, but with that over-ready deal, which of course has transpired to be a lie. Therefore it's gone rogue.

Whilst the manifesto does mention the deal signed in January, it lays out the following as the goals

A path to a new free trade agreement with the EU
UK out of the single market
Out of any form of customs union
End the role of the European Court of Justice
There will be no political alignment with the EU
Take back control of our laws
Take back control of our money
Control our own trade policy
Introduce an Australian-style points-based immigration system
Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment
Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters

The two bolded ones essentially prohibit the top one - this is what is laid out in the manifesto. I think leaving the EU is bonkers. but I do think the Tory's goals have been very clear.

[Golgo]

I don't agree about the two prohibiting the other. Alignment on political (e.g. foreign policy) and/or legislative (e.g. courts) matters is not necessarily the same as economic alignment.

[QualityChimp]

I must say that I do enjoy discussing these things with you, [MENTION=42]MartyG[/MENTION].
I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but appreciate you trying to take an objective stance on political matters, which takes me out of my bubble.

I'm not sure I'd agree that whips mean the parliamentry system is broken; if an MP chooses to represent a party, that comes with certain caveats, in that you support the party line. That individual is perfectly entitled to stand in an election as an independent and so not have to follow the party whip - they know when they're elected on a Labour, Tory or any other party ticket that they will be expected to tow the party line, hence be whipped.

MPs are still very much able to ignore the whips, but they can expect to be expelled from the party if they do so - they will still remain an MP. If people voted for them simply because they wear a blue rosette, they might not be re-elected, so if you want an independent MP not tied to party whips, stop voting for candidates tied to mainstream parties to represent you.

There's the rub, though.

Step out of line and you're fired. Don't join one of the main parties, face minimal chance of getting in.

What's the point of them having votes if all the party members are fired for dissent?
Just say "This is what the party wants" and be done with it without the pretence of democracy.

I can't believe all 340 MPs who voted to pass the Internal Market Bill went to bad last night thinking "We've done democracy proud and are doing the right thing for the UK."