Retro|Spective on Retro|Spective 150: Super Mario 3D

[Neon Ignition]

It's been several years of Retro|Spective threads now and long enough to take a look back at some of the more notable franchises or threads that attracted the most discussion in a spin on the usual format which will happen from here on every tenth thread. Taking a similar approach as the Canon|Strike threads, this will break from the normal structure of presenting a franchises run in one post to regular update focus on individual entries with

Retro|Spective on Retro|Spective

This is effectively a deep dive giving a chance for more detailed thoughts on the merits and failings of individual titles, your memories of them and how they place in terms of their franchise mates should the series being discussed have been fortunate to have enjoyed multiple entries. We begin with the core 3D era line of Nintendo's mascot with:

Super Mario 64




This is an entry who's introduction isn't required, the first footage I saw of it via Bad Influence was an event unlike any I can recall in gaming past. It was the one true moment of being struck by a truly next-generational shift that you could never come back from. To then be so hyped for so long until its release, go through the chaos of launch day (I'd end up waiting around an extra fortnight of being lied to and messed about by my retailer) and then playing it for the first time and it actually living up to that hype was unforgettable. So much time spent simply wandering Peaches castle grounds, hearing the birds chirp, the freedom to jump into the moat and more was something never recreated.

Time has aged the game to a degree, it's simpler than it once was and a bit over familiar but it's still one of the most easy to play N64 titles thanks to its strong focus on control and for me it's still not the weakest in the 3D line of Mario games which is a testament to the strength of its design. The closest to unimpressed I've been was the poorly judged NDS update of the game and I'm thankful Rare had its platform distractions for the system as it was a bit of a shame a direct sequel never made it to N64 to see what a more confident Nintendo would have done on the same hardware.

Is Super Mario 64 still a relevant entry or has it aged too much for you to enjoy like you did? Was it always overrated or is it still a classic? What are your favourite levels and moments?

[Leon Retro]

I remember first seeing footage of Mario 64 on GamesMaster -- it was truly astonishing. Once I finally got to play it, I found out it's an extremely well crafted experience that's a whole lot of fun to play. Nintendo managed to combine cutting edge graphics with brilliantly designed gameplay. It's not only the game that defined what the N64 was all about, but it also manages to stand the test of time perfectly.

[Asura]

I still think it's a stone-cold classic. It's not flawless, and never was - even at the time, the camera was considered poor despite us not having much to compare it to (CVG put it really well, when they said "you can die when it isn't your fault", which was fundamentally worse than SMW) but those are picking away at an absolutely fantastic game which is still incredibly playable today.

Also, while I loved Odyssey, I couldn't help but feel that game felt short in comparison.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Super Mario 64 was obviously jaw-dropping when it was first revealed, and is obviously undoubtedly one of the all-time Nintendo greats.

I do feel that the case can still be made for it having the best camerawork of any 3D Mario game simply because you actually have full control of the camera, which is something that Sunshine, Galaxy, Galaxy 2 and Odyssey cannot boast (even though their camerawork is admittedly smoother and more refined).

That said, Galaxy, Galaxy 2 and Odyssey are all much the better games by a distance now. Far more refined, polished and far better QoL gameplay improvements (Odyssey not throwing you back to a main hub after collection of every Shine is a mechanic alone that instantly makes it better than 64, imho).

If anything, SM64 is crying out for a proper HD remastering at this point. SM64 in the Odyssey engine would be an absolute winner in my book, but this is Nintendo we're talking about here - we all know they're unlikely to put that kind of work in. Nevertheless, let's hope that the SMB 35th Anniversary rumours prove me to be spectacularly wrong.

[dataDave]

I'd never salivated over screenshots so much in a magazine before. I got the NMS where they had their import consoles delivered to the offices and did a huge blowout on the game.

I then worked on a savings roadmap which would guarantee me a console come UK launch day (I was fifteen). Nine months of careful financial planning ruined by low stock and crappy retailer handling. It hurt so badly watching the family one notch before me in the queue walk away with theirs.

I can't play it much these days. I'll most likely go through it with my son at some point, especially if they do a remaster.

[CMcK]

I have tried several times over the years but just cannot get along with Mario 64. I’d have to say it was overrated. I can’t really pinpoint why I’m so indifferent to it. Maybe the N64 pad? Or the blurry visuals? I’m unsure. I have picked up an alternative N64 controller which has a more conventional layout so will revisit the game at some point.

[Neon Ignition]

I suppose the NDS version stopped it but it's kind of perfect for 3DS/Switch remaking as the mission style hub makes things bitesize (even though you can just suspend the systems).

[Dogg Thang]

The original Mario 64 is a superb game in my view and still is. It got how 3D games could be played and it made it work in a way that felt more natural than most other console games before it. It looked great because it was designed to work within the limits of the N64 and it had a real charm to it. But I think its biggest success for me was in creating a system of play, a system where you would revisit short sections to achieve different things, in a way that made me want to beat each section. I wanted to play it.

And I consider so many games around that time and those that followed where, for me, they just didn't pull that off. I know there are many people who love the Spyros and the Jak and Daxters and Clanks and whatever but, with so many of those 3D games, I feel like I'm going through the motions. And much of it is simply 'collect x amount of these things' and also 'there are 3 other hidden things' that, for me, is about as fun as searching my house for a missing sock.

By contrast, Mario 64 set out little challenges, made them clear and I wanted to beat each little challenge. I needed no more motivation than that to keep going with Mario 64 and I think that's a pretty rare thing. Lots of games require more to keep you going, be it story or unlockables or whatever. I wanted to play Mario 64 for no other reason than it was fun.

[Neon Ignition]

I can't remember where as it was so long ago but I recall seeing or reading that they spent ages working on just Mario's model and movement before starting to design levels around it which is exactly how it should be and would explain why SM64 feels so good to play. I never understood Spyro's popularity as the game always felt like a chore and he felt doggish to control by comparison (some leeway for being on PS1 though) largely being an example of the opposite. So many games still feel like they approach things from a level first mentality, especially stuff claiming to homage the greats.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, that sounds about right. He felt really good. Even with the faffing around at the start trying to get used to the 3D controls and jump off trees and stuff, it was enjoyable.

[Leon Retro]

IMaybe the N64 pad? Or the blurry visuals?

The N64 pad definitely divides opinion -- some people like how it feels, some hate it. I have personally never felt any problem with it, so I think it works well in all sorts of games. But it is a strange controller, so I appreciate why it doesn't gel with everyone.

Mario 64 has the clearest and cleanest graphics of any N64 game, so god knows what you'd think of the really vaseline-o-vision N64 games. The minimalist graphical design of Mario 64 is another reason why it still stands up well. It looks especially nice on a de-blur N64 on a decent CRT or through a scaler.

[Neon Ignition]

Super Mario Sunshine
The second game featuring Mario in a 3D environment had been discussed for years with rumours of an abandoned direct sequel to 64 first being the talking point until it became clear that the systems successor would become the new focus. The first screenshots of Sunshine emerged and out the gate its visuals looked to be lacking but none the less trust lay in Nintendo to suitably deliver on a true sequel to a game some considered the be the best ever made.




The game immediately drew attention for the FLUDD water canon/jet pack feature that gave Mario more moves and also made him more awkward to control. Coupled with the fact he was already more skittish to control the game quickly drew fans and criticism alike. Featuring abstract levels that stripped Mario back to the core gameplay as well as hub based areas where you literally cleaned up town, the game has never held the same love as most of the other entries in the series and as yet has never had a second lease of life on another format to try and win over new fans.

For me, the game had some enjoyment to it but pretty much every single facet of it was a disappointment in the wake of 64. It wasn't a good looker with the engine that powered this and two Mario Karts being an ugly bugger Nintendo overly relied on. They hadn't mastered the camera particularly when used in conjunction with the jet pack etc fludd controls and even in the mini levels Mario never felt right to control, he was worse than in a game made at the dawn of 3D platformers. Being a mainline Mario game I stuck it out but critically this is one of only two entries I've never felt a compulsion to revisit at length, the possibility of a hopefully fully reworked new remaster potentially seeing that change. It wasn't without merit but it was definitely worse than Super Mario 64.

Do you hold Sunshine in higher regard?

[danstan21]

SM64 is still a fantastic experience IMO, and I say that having no particular nostalgia for its release. I didn't play it until 2005-ish, well after I'd already played Sunshine. Mario's elaborate moveset make the sandbox levels hugely fun to explore, the levels are all delightfully distinct and the castle is the best hub-world I've come across in any game to this day. Not to mention the soundtrack is a banger - Dire Dire Docks in particular is dreamlike, and I remember humming the wing-cap tune for hours after turning the system off. Apart from the graphics, I really don't feel like much about it has aged badly at all.

I really, really wanted Odyssey to be 64 2, but I was disappointed. I feel like it's a game best described as 'bloated'. I cruised through the whole game on moons that required almost no challenge at all. I'm sure there are 120 SM64-quality moons somewhere in there, but I was coming across moons left, right and centre so I felt little incentive to stick around to explore the nooks and crannies for more meaty gameplay. This in turn made the levels feel much less interesting than 64's, even though they're often packed with more stuff.

It's a shame because the cap mechanic was really cool and Mario controls really nicely - I can tell it's a very well-made game. It just didn't grab me much at all. Sure, I could go for 100% completion, but if the "real" enjoyment doesn't begin until the postgame, that's a pretty bad thing in my books.

Sunshine is a lot of fun and still ranks highly among 3D platformers no doubt, but I think Neon Ignition has basically covered all my complaints with it. Fludd made platforming sections trivial, but there's enough Fludd-less sections (Sand Bird...!) to notice that the platforming controls are just a little bit too imprecise. Too many blue coin stars replacing actual challenges (which I believe devs have since admitted was due to time constraints) without any tracking system. And, while the 'summer vacation' setting is nice theming, the environments do blend together. This is probably more noticeable due to 64's environments being so distinct, not to mention numerous - 64's 15 main levels to Sunshine's seven.

The final boss where you play Mr Muscle to Bowser's hot tub is really lame too.

[Mayhem]

Too many blue coin stars replacing actual challenges

This. Unlike pretty much every other SM game I've completed, and then gone back to get all the remaining stars I'd missed (and beyond for example SMG on the Wii), I just didn't here, so my star count sits at around 90 iirc.

[Dogg Thang]

I really liked the vibe of Sunshine but, for me, the game fell down in one area that was enough of a big deal to place it right down the bottom of the Mario list: the camera. The camera and level design did not work well together. Too many times I plummeted to my death because the camera shifted at the point of a jump. Some parts I couldn't see at all - I had no idea what I was doing. The camera, in my view, was totally broken. That's not unique to Sunshine - I have revisited a bunch of games from that time and found the same thing (Sonic Heroes, Billy Hatcher for example) - but it is unusual of a Mario game to be so broken.

So my experience of the game involved a lot of frustration and, specifically, feeling that the frustration was the game's fault rather than my own and that's pretty damning for a series where the quality is so high.