BPX053: Olympus Has Fallen

[Asura]

Its fine, [MENTION=3905]wheelaa[/MENTION].

Yet - and I may be way off - it seems to me that you think that people who voted for Trump are 'wrong' because doing so condones racism (whether they are themselves racist or not), so does that not mean that you are contradicting yourself by saying you disagree with people who might say you were wrong to vote Labour because doing so condones racism (whether you are yourself racist* or not)?

I mean, "wrong" is subjective; that's kinda the issue. In politics we often have to pick "the wrong that's more right".

Also in politics, you have the concept of a "wedge issue". These are specific, named concerns that voters have, which are enough on their own to swing them. The classic wedge issue in the USA is abortion; like on its own, it's a big enough issue to sway a voter and the two parties famously disagree on it.

There are people out there who will doubtless hold me in contempt for what I said above; people for whom antisemitism is a "wedge issue". Like even the slightest hint of it will immediately hold them from voting for a party, and they look at me like some people might look at a Trump voter. They think I'm "wrong"; and they're allowed to hold that opinion.

But the possibility that there were some issues in this area in Labour weren't a wedge issue for me; and as I stated above, a sad reason for it is that I believe there's a reasonable undercurrent of antisemitism in the country at large.

I have quite progressive views on gender, transgenderism and that whole area of discourse, and I find most people in the UK are quite intolerant of that stuff. I don't believe any of the political parties are really that progressive in this area. But I feel I should vote for someone.

[QualityChimp]

‘Not all Brexiters are racists, but almost all racists will be voting for Brexit’ - Will Self.
Full interview, which is worth watching.

All Labour voters support anti-semitism, all Conservatives voters want to starve children, all Democrat voters want to let immigrants in, all Republicans want to be free to shoot those immigrants.

It's this Venn diagram that people struggle with, on both sides.
How can the people who don't sit in that overlap be reached?

[Neon Ignition]

That's the sad trap. At work the common response at this point would be people suggesting 'well, vote Green Party' etc which makes a level of sense at a personal level but the sad reality is that you do so knowing that by taking a vote away from Labour you're contributing to handing the keys to No.10 to the Tories and therein lies the trap of the two party system.

[Neon Ignition]

‘Not all Brexiters are racists, but almost all racists will be voting for Brexit’ - Will Self.
Full interview, which is worth watching.

All Labour voters support anti-semitism, all Conservatives voters want to starve children, all Democrat voters want to let immigrants in, all Republicans want to be free to shoot those immigrants.

It's this Venn diagram that people struggle with, on both sides.
How can the people who don't sit in that overlap be reached?

Hand America back to the Native Americans The Republican position has become so ludicrous at this point in so many ways

[QualityChimp]

That's the sad trap. At work the common response at this point would be people suggesting 'well, vote Green Party' etc which makes a level of sense at a personal level but the sad reality is that you do so knowing that by taking a vote away from Labour you're contributing to handing the keys to No.10 to the Tories and therein lies the trap of the two party system.

If Labour were to propose proportional representation in the next General Election, they'd probably get my vote... that time.

Which means they wouldn't propose it as they know they'd lose votes in the future. Rather risk maybe getting in than lose that vote boost. Which takes us back to square one where I don't want a 2-party sytem.

[wheelaa]

Honestly, we're really close in viewpoint on this I feel. My overall bumbling is really just trying to say that I think any sort of absolute inflexible opinion just doesn't hold true.

(Sadly, not just antisemitism.)

"That's the sad trap. At work the common response at this point would be people suggesting 'well, vote Green Party' etc which makes a level of sense at a personal level but the sad reality is that you do so knowing that by taking a vote away from Labour you're contributing to handing the keys to No.10 to the Tories and therein lies the trap of the two party system."

I'm ashamed / not ashamed to say that given this (bolded), and that neither of the big parties values and policies really reflect what I want from a national government, I go selfish and vote solely based on my local candidates, what I make of them as people and what I can gather on their values, how the sitting MP has voted, and to a large extent who I feel will best serve my local authority.

Change the system and that may well change, but for now, I see that as the best use of my vote. Sorry, not sorry.

Edit - I should probably add that since I have adopted that stance (last 13-14yrs) I've been fortunate that my musings have ended up with me backing the Lib Dem candidate (don't tell my family...). I imagine if they led to either of the big two, I'd just chuck my vote out to one of the local one issue non party candidates.

[Asura]

I go selfish and vote solely based on my local candidates, what I make of them as people and what I can gather on their values, how the sitting MP has voted, and to a large extent who I feel will best serve my local authority.

Honestly I don't think this is a bad approach, if you have strong feelings about it.

I voted Labour a while back because all the other candidates wanted to close the libraries (something which for me, is a wedge issue).