United Kingdom VII: Taking Pride in Your Success

[kryss]

The economy recovery is so stupid. So, from nothing to something? 1000% maybe?

That's infinite growth! Completely sustainable of course, in every possible sector.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/07/keir-starmer-labour-spent-too-long-talking-ourselves

Starmar says Labour has lost the trust of the working class people.

It's not just that though is it? They also face the issue that ultimately they're a left leaning party in a nation whose voting population is fundamentally primarily firmly right leaning and re-engaged with the voting process. It's a lost battle.

[Hirst]

I'm a working class person and my main issue with Starmer is that he has provided a laughably weak counterpoint to one of the most lousy governments I've ever experienced, to the point where I barely remember that he, the Labour Party or any other kind of opposition even exists.

[prinnysquad]

Spaffer and his kinsmen have worked hard up here to try and convince people that they are the party of the working person. Backed by their daily rag fanzines and vast quantities of money pumped into Tory-held seats, they’ve managed to con a lot of people.

I can’t remember the political term for it, but they reward the blue seats with investment and ignore those that aren’t. Sadly, people don’t get angry about this. Instead, they want a slice, too. That’s why you get results like Hartlepool. Allied to that, we have seen some genuinely left-wing policies pushed through the pandemic. There’s irony for you.

Once it’s realised that the well of funds won’t stretch to all newly-acquired seats, then there may be more clawback. Especially then the ‘working person’ is expected to foot the bill for all the pandemic policies.

[Armchair Critic]

I don’t know who came up with the new sub title ‘Red Cred Redemption’, but it’s a belter.

[Dogg Thang]

The thread titles have been wonderful.

In regards to Starmer providing weak opposition, I'd agree. But like with Trump and the Democrats, I now see the problem differently. I hear a lot of complaints about weak Labour and there is definitely truth in that, just as there was with the Democrats. But that's not the problem here at all. That's now just something said to try to deflect from the real problem and to try to avoid looking at the harsh reality the UK is dealing with: if something is rotten (and it is), it's not just the Tories, it's not the weak opposition. It's a very large number of the population. It is the majority of the voters in the country. The country is rotten.

If a part in power can do all they have done, literally leading to huge numbers of deaths all while very publicly and repeatedly engaging in self-serving cronyism, lying brazenly every step of the way, and still have a majority vote? That's a country that's rotten.

A strong Labour won't help that. The country doesn't want a strong Labour. It has what it wants. That's the real problem.

[wakka]

Red Cred Redemption

[Cassius_Smoke]

Successive Tory governments have changed the way the game is played and put the rules in their favour. Its made a difficult task for Labour almost impossible. There is not only very little way the opposition can challenge the government, but there are no legal ramifications to anything they do either.

[ZipZap]

The thread titles have been wonderful.

In regards to Starmer providing weak opposition, I'd agree. But like with Trump and the Democrats, I now see the problem differently. I hear a lot of complaints about weak Labour and there is definitely truth in that, just as there was with the Democrats. But that's not the problem here at all. That's now just something said to try to deflect from the real problem and to try to avoid looking at the harsh reality the UK is dealing with: if something is rotten (and it is), it's not just the Tories, it's not the weak opposition. It's a very large number of the population. It is the majority of the voters in the country. The country is rotten.

If a part in power can do all they have done, literally leading to huge numbers of deaths all while very publicly and repeatedly engaging in self-serving cronyism, lying brazenly every step of the way, and still have a majority vote? That's a country that's rotten.

A strong Labour won't help that. The country doesn't want a strong Labour. It has what it wants. That's the real problem.

The majority of the voters didn't vote Tory, the flawed system just makes it appear that way.

Anyway, about your main point, maybe my head is in the clouds, but I'm not convinced everyone voting Tory is doing so out of greed and hatred. Cameron and Osborne are gone and the message from the current bunch is one of investment and regeneration. The message people are buying into is largely one of a better future for people who have been seen years of decline.

This election came at a very good time for the Tories. They spent billions on a furlough scheme which has offered support to an awful lot of people over the past year and we're seeing an efficient vaccine rollout (in particular, whilst the big bad bureaucratic EU has fumbled).

Whilst in my eyes the government's indecision cost a lot of lives, I think a lot of people still see a high death toll as inevitable....and unfortunately, people have short memories.

Will we see this rosy future where everyone votes Tory and we all live happily under one-world capitalism? I very much doubt it. But when the **** hits the fan, Labour need to do better.

I do believe the electoral system is well and truly rotten though, we desperately need a system that allows a representation of a wider range of view points.

[Dogg Thang]

about your main point, maybe my head is in the clouds, but I'm not convinced everyone voting Tory is doing so out of greed and hatred.

I don't disagree with a lot of your post but I think it's incredibly telling that you took this as my main point because it's not something I wrote. Which tells me that, actually, maybe it's a pretty safe connection - if someone suggests that the country wants the Tories, that comes with greed and hatred as part of a package, at least in enough cases.

[Asura]

I think this is one of those situations - where you're right in saying that not everyone who votes Tory is a craven, cackling villain who HATES normal people and wants to kill the poor.

But similar qualities, alongside things like corruption, can be ascribed to leading members of that party, including its actual leader - and you're saying this isn't a deal-breaker for you.

[Dogg Thang]

But similar qualities, alongside things like corruption, can be ascribed to leading members of that party, including its actual leader - and you're saying this isn't a deal-breaker for you.

Yes, this. And I think you have to look at why that is and it would be far too simplistic to say that all the voters are bad people. People just make choices. But right now the Tories, with everything they have done and everything we know about them (which is hardly hidden info), are who large numbers of people are voting for. That's a clear message. That's not a Labour failure. Those people wouldn't vote for a stronger Labour. That's not what they want. What they want is exactly what they're voting for. Whether that's good for them is a whole other story.

[ZipZap]

I don't disagree with a lot of your post but I think it's incredibly telling that you took this as my main point because it's not something I wrote. Which tells me that, actually, maybe it's a pretty safe connection - if someone suggests that the country wants the Tories, that comes with greed and hatred as part of a package, at least in enough cases.

Well it's always been my go-to as to why people vote Tory, but I'm trying to be more open-minded lately

Ok, I think I see what you mean now.

I think sometimes it's easy to overlook the bad because you hope for something better. I voted remain despite the EU's austerity and neo-liberalist tendencies, I sometimes feel I downplayed allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour party because I believed in Corbyn. I voted for a Labour councillor and mayor despite a "best of a bad bunch" feeling.

[Hirst]

I don't think everyone who votes for the Conservatives are evil, but I think it's a bit like nervously laughing along with the school bully while he throws somebody else's bag on the canteen roof. I think people vote for them to keep things broadly as they are because the situation suits them.

If you're doing alright under the Conservatives, what do you care that they're closing down a bunch of stuff you don't need to use? Yeah they're going to close down the local library, but they're not going to start meddling with your buy-to-let portfolio and start requiring you spend some extra money to bring it up to code. The public transport situation is a nightmare, but they aren't going to start making you pay your workers a wage they can live on. They're openly corrupt and give deals to their mates, but maybe one day you can be one of those mates.

They aren't the party of hope for a better tomorrow, they're the party of people who either like the system they've got or are so worn down by cynicism that they feel this is the best system they're ever going to get. It's the 21st century and we can engineer vaccines to save millions of lives. At the same time, human lives are worth so little that it's cheaper to have a bunch of men wash your car than a fairly simple robot. If you reckon after 11 years of managed decline they're suddenly going to turn on their heels and make society great, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[ZipZap]

I don't think everyone who votes for the Conservatives are evil, but I think it's a bit like nervously laughing along with the school bully while he throws somebody else's bag on the canteen roof. I think people vote for them to keep things broadly as they are because the situation suits them.

If you're doing alright under the Conservatives, what do you care that they're closing down a bunch of stuff you don't need to use? Yeah they're going to close down the local library, but they're not going to start meddling with your buy-to-let portfolio and start requiring you spend some extra money to bring it up to code. The public transport situation is a nightmare, but they aren't going to start making you pay your workers a wage they can live on. They're openly corrupt and give deals to their mates, but maybe one day you can be one of those mates.

They aren't the party of hope for a better tomorrow, they're the party of people who either like the system they've got or are so worn down by cynicism that they feel this is the best system they're ever going to get. It's the 21st century and we can engineer vaccines to save millions of lives. At the same time, human lives are worth so little that it's cheaper to have a bunch of men wash your car than a fairly simple robot. If you reckon after 11 years of managed decline they're suddenly going to turn on their heels and make society great, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The stereotype you're talking about doesn't seem to be who is voting for them in places like Hartlepool though. They ran a campaign based on promises of investment and convinced at least some people they aren't the party of austerity anymore. The fact they have managed to do this despite the other points you've made shows Labour has a problem.