Retro|Spective 196: The Final Tour of Gamecube

[wakka]

Seriously though, I'd agree it's not a bad game. It's just kind of a cornball alternate version that wasn't really needed considering the original had only arrived a few short years prior. It's fun to play, though, and I'm glad we have it.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Seriously though, I'd agree it's not a bad game. It's just kind of a cornball alternate version that wasn't really needed considering the original had only arrived a few short years prior. It's fun to play, though, and I'm glad we have it.

That's fair, although I think that GC owners at the time would've been grateful to have had a marquee franchise like MGS appear on the console.

I do get that it is a deliberate reimagining of the OG game (blame Kojima-san for that as he forced Silicon Knights to implement those changes), but I honestly do feel that people forget that you can largely play it like the OG if you wish and not utilise the MGS2 first-person targetting.

I just don't think the changes take away as much as people try to make out. It is still very much MGS in essence.

[importaku]

Monday madness with three more exclusives:

Mutsu to Nohohon
Released only in Japan, this title spanned twelve levels of players selecting a robotic creature to play as and swimming around a Kingdom.




Any memories of these three GC exclusives?

Probably about 10 people that decided to import this game outside Japan lol, even now i still never completed it as you have no direct control over your water looper you have to just sort of give a suggestion direction to where you want them to go and hope they eventually listen. It was a weird one indeed, but it kept me entertained for quite a few hours over the years even if i never did see the end.

[Neon Ignition]

I'm right there with Nu-Eclipse - MGS Twin Snakes > The PS1 version every time.

The additions to the gameplay are essentially rarely used and it simplifying the experience doesn't feel as big a thing as it was made out to be as MGS1 is actually a very short and simple game. The voice work complaints also always felt like moaning for moanings sake whilst the changes to the cutscenes also fell flat with me as an argument. If someone really holds MGS1 close to their heart then sure, but if the same person was also fine with MGS2-4 then there's no ground for complaint with Twin Snakes which is mundane by their standards.

Always the go to when going back to MGS1

[Mayhem]

I certainly found Twin Snakes better to play overall than the original, and just because the first person aim exist, doesn't mean you have to use it heh.

[wakka]

This thread is making me want to replay both MGS1 and Twin Snakes!

[Asura]

I certainly found Twin Snakes better to play overall than the original, and just because the first person aim exist, doesn't mean you have to use it heh.

I mean that's true, but it's kinda like if you added a way to shoot dowards to Ikaruga. It lessens the design because it's unnecessary.

[Nu-Eclipse]

I mean that's true, but it's kinda like if you added a way to shoot dowards to Ikaruga. It lessens the design because it's unnecessary.

Being able to fast drop Tetriminoes and see all of the incoming pieces well in advance during your play doesn't stop modern Tetris from being Tetris.

Likewise, this doesn't stop Twin Snakes from being MGS in any way, shape or form. It simply doesn't.

Pretending like it does is absolutely disingenuous.

[wakka]

Oh come on, it's hardly disingenuous. It's a difference of opinion. I'd argue the Tetris changes were improvements, too, while the changes to MGS1 weren't.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Oh come on, it's hardly disingenuous. It's a difference of opinion. I'd argue the Tetris changes were improvements, too, while the changes to MGS1 weren't.

The very way that is it literally not true yet so many people spout it off to the point that it somehow becomes fact might as well put it in disingenuous territory.

Like, people literally pretend that Twin Snakes isn't MGS and that it's some great crime against FOXHOUND. WTF??

[wakka]

Well, that's as maybe, but I don't think Asura was doing that. No one's disputing it's an MGS game. It's just my opinion that it's not as good as the original.

All this does make me want to fire it up again. I have no good way of doing so without going to loads of hassle hacking my WiiU though, which I can't really be bothered to do. Hopefully when I buy a new computer later this year it will be able to run Dolphin - indications are that it's running really well on the latest Macs (https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/25/dolph...ared-to-intel/), so I might be due a jaunt through some of the titles NI has listed in this thread when that happens.

[Asura]

Well, that's as maybe, but I don't think Asura was doing that. No one's disputing it's an MGS game. It's just my opinion that it's not as good as the original.

This, really - I don't dispute it's an MGS game, any more than I dispute that Ghost Babel is an MGS game.

I just think it's a worse one, but not in a way I necessarily expect other people to share. Again, personal view, but I feel one example of a "perfect" videogame, in design terms, is a game that plays really well etc. but also, where there's nothing you can add to a game nor take away that would materially improve it while not fundamentally changing what it is.

This is one of the reasons I think Super Monkey Ball is a near-perfect game, because I don't think you can add anything to it that improves it, or remove anything to improve the formula. You can change what it is, perhaps, and make something better, but it's a fantastic expression of what it was designed to be.

I've always felt that the original Metal Gear Solid is very close to this too. As a game it's actually quite obtuse; I mean even at the time it was strange that it had no first-person aim and you couldn't move while firing (I know you actually can, but it's really impractical and there's only one place in the game where it's really useful). It would've been really easy for MGS to follow the design conventions of the era for that type of game (and then it would've basically been an earlier Syphon Filter).

Normally with game remakes, there are things you like about them and things you don't. Twin Snakes is strange for me because it's one of the only ones I've played where I've disliked absolutely everything that was changed about the original. I don't even think it looks better; on a technical level it absolutely does (to say otherwise would be ridiculous) but I prefer the art style of the original. Kinda like how SSFT2HDR redraws the Street Fighter sprites; they're technically superior in every measurable way but many people hate them.

And just to double-down on the subjectivity here, I actually really liked SSF2THDR (I liked Udon Comics' interpretation of Street Fighter long before the game, though, which colours my perception).

To say something, also, I don't begrudge that The Twin Snakes exists, or anything like that... Though I guess I am happy that when they do MGS collections, they feature the original game and not TTS (though it's a shame they don't ever do both).

[Neon Ignition]

Fans of both can be happy... that there's MGS3 - the greatest of the entire franchise!



A new batch enters the discussion:


Odama
When the creator of Seaman sets about making a new game for your system you might think you know what to expect but nope, this project instead saw players control a giant ball in a crossover between a pinball game and a tactical war game. The ball, or Odama, is used to destroy enemies and controlled by giant flippers. The systems microphone can be used to direct troops as you play and the game was the last system exclusive published by Nintendo itself.




P.N.03
One of the planned five Gamecube exclusives Capcom had announced, this shooter focused on defense and rhythm based movement. Rushed out though reviews were critical of how repetitive the game could be and it failed to sell. It would however go on to find itself be the basis for work to spring from in developing Vanquish.





Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
Fondly looked back on by franchise fans in part because it was the last entry before the developers were blocked out of using recognisable characters and instead had to greater rely on more bland options. This GC exclusive follow up to the N64 title that had itself rebooted things from the Square made RPG entry had players take on a stunning looking paper craft styled adventure with Mario as hero of the party as you'd expect. Well thought of and well reviewed, a stream of sequels have stopped this from coming to other systems.





Did you gleam joy from these three GC exclusives or do any of them deserve the obscurity they're now slipping into?

[Asura]

P.N.03
One of the planned five Gamecube exclusives Capcom had announced, this shooter focused on defense and rhythm based movement. Rushed out though reviews were critical of how repetitive the game could be and it failed to sell. It would however go on to find itself be the basis for work to spring from in developing Vanquish.

When I saw trailers for this, I assumed incorrectly that it was a Devil May Cry style game, but you had to fight in-rhythm with the music - so when the final game came out, I think it was a lot cooler in my head than the game actually ended up being, and it left me cold.

[wakka]

I'm interested to hear from anyone who played Odama. It always sounded like a nice idea that wouldn't actually work. Was yelling into the mic to direct troops actually effective?!

I'm guessing not, considering with billions of dollars and ten years invested Siri still frequently messes up an egg timer.