Religulous

[Howiee]

the arguments for organised religion now have had hundreds of years to settle in so people can casually throw them out as fact but a vocl athiest viewpoint is a far newer thing so in some ways its easier to shoot at Bill Maher then the nutters and the rubbish they are spouting.

Indeed, many of them are nutters that spout rubbish. But, if there is no God, then are we not doomed to a life that has no purpose or meaning?

Why do human beings have worth, and where do they get it? These are fundamental questions science and atheism can't answer.

[MoFo2]

I was entertained but I could really see good use of the magic wonder that is called editing to make people seem more "dumb"

[abigsmurf]

I hate watching this kind of 'documentary'

There's no editorial oversight other than the creator's. When you have full creative control over editing you can make people appear however you want them to. It's no different to watching something like Fox News.

I'm atheist but I respect other people's views. I find "if you believe in god, you're stupid" types obnoxious. If a Muslim cleric came out and said about Judaism, the things along the lines of what militant atheists say about religion, he'd be labelled a bigot.

[endo]

Indeed, many of them are nutters that spout rubbish. But, if there is no God, then are we not doomed to a life that has no purpose or meaning?

Why do human beings have worth, and where do they get it? These are fundamental questions science and atheism can't answer.

Does life have to have purpose and meaning? I don't believe in god or that life has an intrinsic meaning or purpose, but I don't consider myself, or anyone else, 'doomed' because of that. In my view, life is what it is- a statistically improbable occurrence that started when the sperm that made you beat all the other sperm to the egg and ends when you die.
Admittedly, some might see that outlook as a little bleak, but I accept it for what it is and it certainly doesn't keep me awake at night.

And as for human beings having worth- how would you define worth there? Do human beings actually have any worth at all? Any more than animals, plants, bacteria, fungi and all other living things (or non-living things for that matter)?

You're right- science and atheism can't answer those fundamental questions, as you put it. From an atheist point of view, for me, those questions are essentially meaningless.

[Howiee]

And as for human beings having worth- how would you define worth there?

Why do we mourn for loved ones? Why do we love our children unconditionally? Charity? Grace? Concern? Why do we bother if a human life isn't worth something? Worth can't be defined, it's part of our God created fabric.

Some would argue that we're equal to plants and animals but what plant or animal has a sense of humour, writes poetry/songs/stories, has a complex vocabulary and thinks abstractly?

[endo]

Why do we mourn for loved ones? Why do we love our children unconditionally? Charity? Grace? Concern? Why do we bother if a human life isn't worth something? Worth can't be defined, it's part of our God created fabric.

Why do some people with brain injuries not feel any of those things? Why do some people with mental illnesses not feel those things? Why do some people apparently not feel empathy and then murder or rape? It could indeed be argued that emotions, feelings, love, hate- everything in fact, is generated by the human brain.

I don't want to offend you, but to just say worth can't be defined, it's part of our God created fabric just seems like an easy out to me.
Humans have no worth in an absolute sense, no intrinsic worth, as I see it. The 'worth' we attach to human life, is exactly that- 'worth' that we, as free-thinking humans, attach to it.
Why do we love our children unconditionally? You say it's part of god's design, I say its an automatic response to our offspring, developed through evolution, to ensure our genes successfully pass on (not to mention that not everyone loves their children unconditionally- how much abuse is there in the world? Does that mean that the 'God created fabric' of abusive parents is defective somehow?).
As for charity, grace, concern etc - you could mention just about anything - these aren't universal. They're human-made concepts and not everybody feels them.

[Howiee]

Why do some people with brain injuries not feel any of those things? Why do some people with mental illnesses not feel those things? Why do some people apparently not feel empathy and then murder or rape? It could indeed be argued that emotions, feelings, love, hate- everything in fact, is generated by the human brain.

I don't want to offend you, but to just say worth can't be defined, it's part of our God created fabric just seems like an easy out to me.
Humans have no worth in an absolute sense, no intrinsic worth, as I see it. The 'worth' we attach to human life, is exactly that- 'worth' that we, as free-thinking humans, attach to it.
Why do we love our children unconditionally? You say it's part of god's design, I say its an automatic response to our offspring, developed through evolution, to ensure our genes successfully pass on (not to mention that not everyone loves their children unconditionally- how much abuse is there in the world? Does that mean that the 'God created fabric' of abusive parents is defective somehow?).
As for charity, grace, concern etc - you could mention just about anything - these aren't universal. They're human-made concepts and not everybody feels them.

Offense is counter-productive, so none taken

I don't believe it to be an easy way out because I know that God sent Jesus to die for us. We must be worth something in His eyes.

People who murder and rape (or abusive parents) do so because they choose to. They don't need to be sorry to know that it's wrong - obey it or not, we all have a conscience.

If there is no God then morality is subjective and that would make all moral judgments equal. This is dangerous because, while My God tells me that murder is wrong, an atheist will only come to that conclusion because (hopefully) he's a nice guy (as most are, I'm sure). However, by his own belief system, his opinion is no less valid than that of a murderer because, after all, without a God who is to say who is right? After all, we're just another species of animal.

In the end, people will do what they want. That's why the world is a mess.

[endo]

People who murder and rape (or abusive parents) do so because they choose to. They don't need to be sorry to know that it's wrong - obey it or not, we all have a conscience.

But even if its their 'choice' to abuse their kids, how is that possible if we all have a god created fabric that dictates we unconditionally love our children? Surely that means their fabric is faulty in some way?

If there is no God then morality is subjective and that would make all moral judgments equal.

I absolutely disagree with this. Why is the concept of a god necessary for objective morality? It is entirely possible for objective morality to exist amongst humans, without god.

This is dangerous because, while My God tells me that murder is wrong, an atheist will only come to that conclusion because (hopefully) he's a nice guy (as most are, I'm sure)

So you need god to decide what's right and wrong, and how to live your life? Isn't that dangerous? Why would you put responsibility for your moral judgments into someone else's hands?

I know murder is wrong, and I don't think that way because of some sort of profound evaluation of my belief system- I know it's wrong because I wouldn't want it to happen to me, so why would I do it to anyone else? You don't have to believe in god to live your life in such a way that you treat others as you would want to be treated yourself.

However, by his own belief system, his opinion is no less valid than that of a murderer because, after all, without a God who is to say who is right? After all, we're just another species of animal.

I disagree with that too, partly because you seem to be confusing atheist with nihilist, which is unfortunately a commonly propagated misconception. Atheism is the absence of belief in god, not a nihilist worldview that regards everyone and everything as equal and 'fair game', which it seems you're trying to make out - much in the same way 'religious' doesn't automatically mean 'fundamentalist lunatic'.

[merf]

i don't think there is any point having any conversation with a believer as they will never accept any of this and continue to believe in their passed on fairy stories and things that can never be proven.

[abigsmurf]

No one ever changes their viewpoints in internet arguments, that's why they're such SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Religion vs atheism arguments are worse because neither side can actively present facts that disprove the other side's argument (religion vs atheism != Evolution vs intelligent design before you go down that route)

[merf]

so if we work on the principle of its rubbish til positively proven athiests win then I guess.

hurrah.

[Howiee]

But even if its their 'choice' to abuse their kids, how is that possible if we all have a god created fabric that dictates we unconditionally love our children? Surely that means their fabric is faulty in some way?

No, I believe their fabric is fully intact and no different from yours or mine. They just use their freewill for bad.

I absolutely disagree with this. Why is the concept of a god necessary for objective morality? It is entirely possible for objective morality to exist amongst humans, without god.

Because God created everything. He made the rules. Your opinion or mine doesn't matter. Without God, the moral standard is set by man and his track record is poor. I would rather place responsibility for my moral judgments on what the world perceives to be a fictional God than in the hands of man.

So you need god to decide what's right and wrong, and how to live your life? Isn't that dangerous? Why would you put responsibility for your moral judgments into someone else's hands?

I don't need Him to decide, I need Him to show me. After that it's my decision.

I know murder is wrong, and I don't think that way because of some sort of profound evaluation of my belief system- I know it's wrong because I wouldn't want it to happen to me, so why would I do it to anyone else? You don't have to believe in god to live your life in such a way that you treat others as you would want to be treated yourself.

I know you know murder is wrong. I'm not saying otherwise. But I would argue that you know it's wrong because you have an intuitive understanding that there is more to life than a transient presence on earth.

I disagree with that too, partly because you seem to be confusing atheist with nihilist, which is unfortunately a commonly propagated misconception. Atheism is the absence of belief in god, not a nihilist worldview that regards everyone and everything as equal and 'fair game', which it seems you're trying to make out - much in the same way 'religious' doesn't automatically mean 'fundamentalist lunatic'.

You said: "Do human beings actually have any worth at all? Any more than animals, plants, bacteria, fungi and all other living things (or non-living things for that matter)?" I was responding to that, which seems to suggest that everything/one is equal. Apologies if I misread it.

so if we work on the principle of its rubbish til positively proven athiests win then I guess.

To say there is definitely no God is a complete statement that requires complete knowledge, which you don't have - no one does. You would have to intimately know every square inch of the universe before you can declare there is no God. However, to say that there is a God only requires a little knowledge - the bumble bee, the human eye, love etc. In my opinion.

[merf]

To say there is definitely no God is a complete statement that requires complete knowledge, which you don't have - no one does. You would have to intimately know every square inch of the universe before you can declare there is no God. However, to say that there is a God only requires a little knowledge - the bumble bee, the human eye, love etc. In my opinion.

and with that I'm out, you'll be offended if I say what I think so lets say I don''t agree.

[PrayforMojo]

To say there is definitely no God is a complete statement that requires complete knowledge, which you don't have - no one does. You would have to intimately know every square inch of the universe before you can declare there is no God. However, to say that there is a God only requires a little knowledge - the bumble bee, the human eye, love etc. In my opinion.

That's true but it's like saying you can't disprove the existence of the Loch Ness monster. Which leads me on to your other point, that without God, some kind of divine force to provide a framework of what's right and wrong, than we are reliant on man to lay the guidelines. My question is what's wrong with that, exactly? I mean, if that's not good enough, then what does that say about our parents? Isn't that where we all first learn the difference from right and wrong, then later through contact with others. Can't that be enough, because I'd rather that way, than be reliant on faith?

To quote Steven Weinberg, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

[funkydan]

Despite being raised as a Catholic, and going to church EVERY week while I was growing up until the age of about 16/17, I do not believe in god. I know that the church believes man was supposedly given free will by god, but if this god is so powerful, why is all the suffering in the world, especially in the last 100 years or so, allowed to continue? Surely if we are all god's children as the church believes, then by now he/she/it must have thought things were getting way out of hand?!

So many lives have been lost through out the ages and for many centuries, religion was the main cause of war and is still very much so. If I was god, I'd have put a stop to all this bollocks along time ago. But if you mention this to a christian or catholic person, you get the usual cop out of "Oh but god gave us free will".

Really? Why would an omnipresent, omnipotent god give up the control of his 'children'? Does it say: "Sorry, I'd love to help, but you know there's that whole free will thing and I can't get involved"?

That's the biggest f*cking loophole in the universe! I don't believe in god and quite frankly, I find it hard to believe why anyone else would! If a god does exist, it needs to step in right now and end ALL the suffering in the world.

I lost my brother and his 5 year old daughter in a house fire - and my mum, who had gone to church all her life, had only ever prayed for one thing, and that was for god to keep her family safe - so why would something like that happen? God apparently knows everything, is all powerful and is everywhere all at once, so why the f*ck didn't he save my brother and his daughter (or anyone else who is suffering for that matter)? Aren't we all his children? Sorry, but if this god of yours does exist, he's an asshole (may I burn in non-existent hell)!