Was F-Zero the first "3D effect" racer?

[yesteryeargames]

Indeed, F-ZERO X was the best and absolutely awsome! The gamecube one was still very good but just too darn difficult.

[jnm23]

Rubbish , both versions are both flat as pancakes . The Snes version just looks nicer and far better sound effects , and you see more of the track twisting , the 3D effect is much the same on both though .

Now the likes of F22 Inteceptor , and Road Rash II had a far better 3D effect , than the lovely flat Mode 7 onthe Snes . 1-0 to the Mega Drive ;P.

Just looked at Road Rash 2 on you tube, yes it has the benefit of hills but all the corners are the same - a series of gentle left and right handers

[samanosuke]

Atari's 1988 coin-op Hard Drivin' had the very first 3D polygon racing environment.

As Team Andromeda said, Revs had Hard Drivin' beat by quite a few years.

Here's the Beeb version:



As a dig at Leon for rubbishing the Mega CD, are you upset that Nintendo weren't the innovators you thought they were? Mario Kart the first 3D racer... pfffft. I also hope you take this entirely in jest my friend!

[Team Andromeda]

Just looked at Road Rash 2 on you tube, yes it has the benefit of hills but all the corners are the same - a series of gentle left and right handers

You could say that about Out Run or even Out Run II , and both those games are more 3D than any Mode 7 game you could care to mention . We had plenty of 3D into the screen races on systems long before the Snes , The Master system had the rather good World Grand Prix , and imo the humble spectrum had the best and closest version of Euduro Racer .

And when it came to real 3D , the Mega Drive kicked the Snes into touch , even a early game like Super Hang-On had a better 3D effect than most Snes games , never mind the likes of F22 Inteceptor, Domarks F1 game

I disagree. F-Zero X is the greatest racing game ever and the music was superb

I just disagree , more so on the music , which was in crappy mono and used that horrible America rock style . I hated the game , seemed to loss everything that made the 1st game so special .

[samanosuke]

You could say that about Out Run or even Out Run II , and both those games are more 3D than any Mode 7 game you could care to mention . We had plenty of 3D into the screen races on systems long before the Snes , The Master system had the rather good World Grand Prix , and imo the humble spectrum had the best and closest version of Euduro Racer .

I don't agree. This type of '3D' has been around since Pole Position, and it's not in 3D like Revs, Hard Drivin' or Mario Kart are. You cannot spin the car 180 and see the other way, and the track always originates from the same point in the horizon. The games you mentioned just use a few tricks to make things look 3D.

Outrun II is a different kettle of fish to Outrun, World Grand Prix and Enduro Racer. That is real, bona-fide 3D.

[Team Andromeda]

You cannot spin the car 180 and see the other way, and the track always originates from the same point in the horizon.

You couldn't do that in Out Run II , Need For Speed or Road Rash on the 3DO and well they're more 3D than any Mode 7 game if we talking non flat graphics 's , same goes for Star Fox onthe Snes too
I actually think the 3D update in Lotus II on the Amiga was one of the most impressive in the 16 bit days , but its never seems to get quite the respect it deservers

[Nu-Eclipse]

As Team Andromeda said, Revs had Hard Drivin' beat by quite a few years.

Here's the Beeb version:

Yes, Revs was released three years before Hard Drivin', but as the YouTube clip clearly shows, Revs isn't polygon-based.

Hard Drivin' and Stunt Car Racer (to a lesser extent) are polygon-based, the former being the first game to do this. So for me, they are both better technical achievements that Revs.

[Leon Retro]

Rubbish , both versions are both flat as pancakes . The Snes version just looks nicer and far better sound effects , and you see more of the track twisting , the 3D effect is much the same on both though .

Now the likes of F22 Inteceptor , and Road Rash II had a far better 3D effect , than the lovely flat Mode 7 onthe Snes . 1-0 to the Mega Drive ;P.

This is worse than being in a playground as an 8-year-old.

I always give credit, where credit is due. Mode7 is pretty basic - but.. in the right hands[Nintendo's] it helped to produce brilliant games[F-Zero-Pilotwings-Mario Kart]

F-Zero is more than just a demonstration of Mode7. It's a brilliantly designed game in all areas. That's the reason it's still played - and seen by many as the best F-Zero.

Pilotwings looks very 3D to me; even now. It's an even better example of what Mode7 could achieve. I'd say it's the best showcase of the effect.

I thought it was strange that no other developer really matched what Nintendo achieved with Mode7. If you play Battle Cars( very similar to F-Zero) .. it looks flatter and less convincing. Even the movement is less impressive. Nintendo's people knew how to get the best out of the effect.


The MD Road Rash games were pretty impressive. The people who produced them were very good programmers. The effects they employed were a lot different to Mode7. It was a far more traditional technique used( like those seen in games like Lotus Challenge, JaguarXJ220 ) ... but better.

As Team Andromeda said, Revs had Hard Drivin' beat by quite a few years.

Here's the Beeb version:



As a dig at Leon for rubbishing the Mega CD, are you upset that Nintendo weren't the innovators you thought they were? Mario Kart the first 3D racer... pfffft. I also hope you take this entirely in jest my friend!

I've never said that Nintendo were first with 3D racers. We were talking about "2D Scaling Effects" .. to simulate a 3D look. The SNES had dedicated hardware for that( much like Sega's late 80s Super Scaler tech, but not as powerful ) ... It was something that did impress people in the early 90s - when they saw Pilotwings & F-Zero. There is no denying that fact.

The thing with proper 3D games for computers & consoles - is that the framerates were always low. You were lucky to get 10fps. 3D put a lot of strain on any hardware of the 80s and early 90s. The reason most devs used 2D scaling effects for their racers - was simply to get a fast framerate.

Geoff Crammond did brilliant things with proper 3D. I've never played REVS - but from reading about it and seeing videos, there is no doubt that he achieved brilliance with it. I've always loved Stunt Car Racer - which was astonishing on the Amiga and actually ran pretty well( and still does )

When it comes to the MegaCD - I don't rate the machine, but.. I do own and enjoy the handful of good games for the system. I never dismiss anything as poor - for any other reason than I gave it chance and it didn't deliver what I wanted. I wish the MegaCD had been home to loads of genuinely brilliant AAA games. Sadly, I found its games to be mostly weak. The odd exceptions weren't enough. From launch to death, the machine lacked a positive vibe.

[samanosuke]

Yes, Revs was released three years before Hard Drivin', but as the YouTube clip clearly shows, Revs isn't polygon-based.

Hard Drivin' and Stunt Car Racer (to a lesser extent) are polygon-based, the former being the first game to do this. So for me, they are both better technical achievements that Revs.

The debate isn't about which was the first racer to use polygons, or which was the most technically accomplished, just which was the first to have a 3d effect.

[samanosuke]

This is worse than being in a playground as an 8-year-old.

Come on buddy, I was only joshing with you for slating my favourite console add-on.

Flame wars aside, I think you need to be more specific as to what you mean when you asked which game was the first to use a '3D effect'. If you mean Mode 7 background scaling/rotating with scaled sprites then of course F-Zero would be the first game to use it as the SNES was one of the first consoles to use such technology (was the AES released before the SFC? I can't recall).

If we're talking real 3D, ie polygons, then as people have stated there were quite a few of those long before the SNES and its flat 3D racing games arrived on the scene.

Then of course we have Pole Position-style 3D which uses either sprite-scaling or pre-scaled sprites to give the effect of 3D like in Outrun, Lotus 2 etc. As I've said before, I don't qualify these as 'proper' 3D racing titles so I think the medal should be awarded to Revs. I'm no expert but it looks like Crammond used polygons for the track and sprites for the cars. Still, I'm sure someone will come up with some wireframe 3D racing game from the 70s...

[samanosuke]

The thing with proper 3D games for computers & consoles - is that the framerates were always low. You were lucky to get 10fps. 3D put a lot of strain on any hardware of the 80s and early 90s. The reason most devs used 2D scaling effects for their racers - was simply to get a fast framerate.

Here's a game which never seems to get much recognition:



It's amazingly fast on a stock 7mhz A500, much faster than Stunt Car Racer or F1GP, and the helicopter camera view on the replays is very impressive. The game had lovely analogue control via the mouse, too/

[Leon Retro]

Come on buddy, I was only joshing with you for slating my favourite console add-on.

Flame wars aside, I think you need to be more specific as to what you mean when you asked which game was the first to use a '3D effect'. If you mean Mode 7 background scaling/rotating with scaled sprites then of course F-Zero would be the first game to use it as the SNES was one of the first consoles to use such technology (was the AES released before the SFC? I can't recall).

If we're talking real 3D, ie polygons, then as people have stated there were quite a few of those long before the SNES and its flat 3D racing games arrived on the scene.

Then of course we have Pole Position-style 3D which uses either sprite-scaling or pre-scaled sprites to give the effect of 3D like in Outrun, Lotus 2 etc. As I've said before, I don't qualify these as 'proper' 3D racing titles so I think the medal should be awarded to Revs. I'm no expert but it looks like Crammond used polygons for the track and sprites for the cars. Still, I'm sure someone will come up with some wireframe 3D racing game from the 70s...

I didn't start the thread. ... I'm know it's all lighthearted debate. You Sega lovers still wind me up, though.

There is a big difference between sprite scaling in software and hardware. All racing games with a normal perspective, use some form of sprite scaling. The SNES simply had a version of the technology used in arcade machines. It was expensive hardware in the late 80s - which is obviously why the MD didn't feature any hardware like Super Scaler.

Nintendo had two years extra to plan their 16-bit machine. They wanted to make a big impression - and they did with F-Zero & Pilotwings. Both games used the Mode chip very well. Of course, it wasn't anything revolutionary technology wise overall, but for the home it was impressive for its time.

The fact that Sega finally chose to use hardware sprite scaling effects for the MegaCD, shows how important a feature it really was. Team Andromeda keeps going on about Batman for the machine - and that was using advanced sprite scaling to very impressive effect.

After that, true 3D became the norm on 32-bit consoles, and sprite scaling effects were no longer needed. Even back in 91, when Virtua Racing appeared, it was clear that sprite scaling was old tech. On consoles it was still nice, but.. not that great really. Star Fox used proper 3D. Nintendo decided that Mode7 had had its time.

[Team Andromeda]

I always give credit, where credit is due. Mode7 is pretty basic - but.. in the right hands[Nintendo's] it helped to produce brilliant games[F-Zero-Pilotwings-Mario Kart]

I love Mode 7 effect too , but you're incorrect to say Street Racer is more 3D on the Snes . Both the MD and Snes versions had exactly the same effect for the sprites (since both lack sprite scaling ) and both use the flat background for the track .

F-Zero is more than just a demonstration of Mode7. It's a brilliantly designed game in all areas. That's the reason it's still played - and seen by many as the best F-Zero.

That's a different point , you not see me question that F-Zero isn't a brilliant game m, it still remains one of the best game I've played .

There is a big difference between sprite scaling in software and hardware. All racing games with a normal perspective, use some form of sprite scaling. The SNES simply had a version of the technology used in arcade machines. It was expensive hardware in the late 80s - which is obviously why the MD didn't feature any hardware like Super Scaler

And you elite Snes snobs don't half wind people up . You there have a go at the Mega Drive for the lack of colours , only to praise Star Fox onthe Snes , with its amazing 16 colours on screen
Obviously colours didn't matter when the game is awesome and packed with effects
When it came to true 3D the MD was simply the better machine , thanks to its CPU , isn't that one of the reasons why Jimmy White Snooker never made it to the Snes , was due its CPU couldn't handle the polygons and 3D calculations.
Now play F15 onthe Snes to that of F22 onthe Mega Drive , and have a good laugh, at the stock Snes trying to handle polygons

Now if you're really desrate to upstage the MD , they stick to things like simultaneous sound samples, or scaling of a Huge backround or image , something which no Mega Drive game handle well .
When it comes to other effects , I suggest The SNES club get's off it's mighty horse , and plays the likes of RED ZONE or Batman & Robin and take a look at what an stock MD game could handle

Even back in 91, when Virtua Racing appeared, it was clear that sprite scaling was old tech

Back in 91 SEGA system 32 board was dropping jaws , Model 1 didn't come out until mid 92 and even then the prospect of any machine handling polygons like that was off the chart .

Playing Batman Returns onthe Mega CD in the summer of 92 was amazing , because you felt like you had a coin up in your own room , and the Mega CD was the only system around at the time that could handle those effects , not even the Neo Geo could have handled Batman

[samanosuke]

I love Mode 7 effect too , but you're incorrect to say Street Racer is more 3D on the Snes . Both the MD and Snes versions had exactly the same effect for the sprites (since both lack sprite scaling ) and both use the flat background for the track .

Come on TA, the two versions are completely different! Street Racer on the SNES is much more 3D.

[jnm23]

In the original question I guess I was referring to background rotation. Interesting debate!