Was F-Zero the first "3D effect" racer?

[Yakumo]

I love Mode 7 effect too , but you're incorrect to say Street Racer is more 3D on the Snes . Both the MD and Snes versions had exactly the same effect for the sprites (since both lack sprite scaling ) and both use the flat background for the track .

No, No mate. the Mega Drive version is nothing like the SNES version. It's good for a MD but not as good as the SNES. take a look at both games on an emulator mate. maybe your memory is fading

Yakumo

[Team Andromeda]

Come on TA, the two versions are completely different! Street Racer on the SNES is much more 3D.

Oh its only more 3D in the sense that the tracks can spin 360 degrees , the tracks in both are still flat , and well they're also flat in the Saturn version too
A more 3D Mode 7 effect is the wonders of what Konami got up too with that Tunnel in Castlevania IV and Axleay

No, No mate. the Mega Drive version is nothing like the SNES version. It's good for a MD but not as good as the SNES

I never said it was , I just said that the tracks in bother were flat (which there are) and to be fair this was also true for the Saturn version as well

[merf]

i always regard 3d deathchase on the speccy as the start of my 3d racing experiences

i know it was just scaled scrolling trees coming at you with an unreachable horizon but wow it was revolutionary at the time.

[Leon Retro]

And you elite Snes snobs don't half wind people up . You there have a go at the Mega Drive for the lack of colours , only to praise Star Fox onthe Snes , with its amazing 16 colours on screen
Obviously colours didn't matter when the game is awesome and packed with effects
When it came to true 3D the MD was simply the better machine , thanks to its CPU , isn't that one of the reasons why Jimmy White Snooker never made it to the Snes , was due its CPU couldn't handle the polygons and 3D calculations.
Now play F15 onthe Snes to that of F22 onthe Mega Drive , and have a good laugh, at the stock Snes trying to handle polygons

I've said many times that the MD could do proper 3D without additional chips, and the SNES couldn't. The 68000 in the MD could produce Amiga quality 3D.

I've also said in the past, that if the SNES had a 68000 chip it would have been soooo much better. The games could have been much more dynamic. Final Fight could have had more characters on the screen.

The SNES cpu is pretty crap. At first, devs struggled quite a bit with it, but.. luckily they learnt to deal with it. What some devs managed to do with such a weak cpu is actually something to applaud.


Anyway, all I said was that the MD doesn't have anything like a Super Scaler chip. It's quite basic tech on paper. Super Scaler was advanced arcade tech; there is no way it could have been in a home machine in 88-89.

Mode7 allowed the SNES to do things in hardware that only the best arcade machines of the mid to late 80s could manage. It was something quite special in the home for 1990. Mode7 alone, wasn't that powerful though. That's why Nintendo put the DSP chip in Mario Kart to help.

Virtua Racing, I thought it was 91 ... Anyway, once people experienced that, they knew what the future of racing games was. Super Scaler type tech had had its day. Yes.. Outrunners still used the technique, but.. that is one of the last breed.

[Team Andromeda]

I've said many times that the MD could do proper 3D without additional chips, and the SNES couldn't. The 68000 in the MD could produce Amiga quality 3D.

Yes the Amiga had some great 3D . Ok the game might have been sh8t , but the Amiga also had the best port of Pit Fighter , even had all the scaling too (unlike the Snes or MD)

I've also said in the past, that if the SNES had a 68000 chip it would have been soooo much better.

If the snes had a fast 60800 chip , it would have killed the NEO GEo in my view, its 2D chipset was so good

I said was that the MD doesn't have anything like a Super Scaler chip. It's quite basic tech on paper. Super Scaler was advanced arcade tech; there is no way it could have been in a home machine in 88-89

The MD tech was good for its time imo

Super Scaler was quite advanced and needed 3 68000 CPU's to power it

Mode7 allowed the SNES to do things in hardware that only the best arcade machines of the mid to late 80s could manage.

Well to be fair the Lynx had one over Mode 7 in that is could scale multiple sprites . I agree Mode 7 was brilliant , and added a lot of games when done well , but there a lot of Mega Drive games with far more effects and things happing on screen- Batman and Robin is taking the piss with the amount of effects .

Virtua Racing, I thought it was 91

Mid 92 , it even made its 1st showing in the UK on Bad Influence. Sprite Scaling was still way in fashion , and SEGA was still used System 32 to power most of its Arcade titles . I think after Ridge Racer , there was no going back to Sprites for racers

[Leon Retro]

Well to be fair the Lynx had one over Mode 7 in that is could scale multiple sprites . I agree Mode 7 was brilliant , and added a lot of games when done well , but there a lot of Mega Drive games with far more effects and things happing on screen- Batman and Robin is taking the piss with the amount of effects .

Mid 92 , it even made its 1st showing in the UK on Bad Influence. Sprite Scaling was still way in fashion , and SEGA was still used System 32 to power most of its Arcade titles . I think after Ridge Racer , there was no going back to Sprites for racers

The Lynx is great hardware. Much better than the crappy NeoGeoPocket - or any other Handheld before the GBA.

Most SNES developers were pretty poor. Konami were the masters of the machine imo. The people they had working on the machine - delivered visual, sonic, gameplay brilliance. Capcom focused mainly on SF2 - and other arcade ports. I wish they had done more original titles - because they knew how to use the hardware.

The thing with the MD, is that the 68000 was nice to work with. I think that's why you see more technical achievements for the machine. I bet a lot of devs hated the SNES CPU. The MD definitely delivers more raw sprite pushing power.

Anyway, a machine's abilities should only be judged by its best games. The MD has some stunning games, as does the SNES. I think people undervalue what some devs achieved with the SNES. ContraIII( which I was playing yesterday) never fails to blow my mind.

Virtua Racing showed me that Super Scaler was finished. That's the first proper 3D racer that showed me the future. As you said, once Ridge Racer appeared, that really was the end for Sprite Scaling racers.

[Team Andromeda]

The Lynx is great hardware. Much better than the crappy NeoGeoPocket - or any other Handheld before the GBA.

Hey I loved the Pocket , before the PSP game the best handheld I owned . Yeah for its time the Lynx was brilliant hardware and had some great games too

Konami were the masters of the machine imo. The people they had working on the machine - delivered visual, sonic, gameplay brilliance.

Yep , Konami were almost as good as NCL onthe Snes . And like I said they made the best use of Mode 7 in Castlevania IV and Axelay

I think people undervalue what some devs achieved with the SNES. ContraIII( which I was playing yesterday) never fails to blow my mind.

I think you're just as guilty as that for what developers achieved onthe Mega Drive to be fair . You should try out the likes of Batman & Robin to see what the MD could do inthe right hands , and Contra onthe MD was pretty special as well, shame it was so bloody hard .

I'll always rate the Snes above the MD , but they were a lot of MD games , with effects that put a lot of Snes games to shame .

That's the first proper 3D racer that showed me the future

I never got that untill I saw RR for the 1st time , that's when sprites looked outdated and there was no going back for racers

[samanosuke]

I've said many times that the MD could do proper 3D without additional chips, and the SNES couldn't. The 68000 in the MD could produce Amiga quality 3D.

Its 68000 could, but its tile-based graphics chip couldn't. There is nothing on the Megadrive that can touch No Second Prize or Combat Air Patrol as far as shifting polygons goes.

I've also said in the past, that if the SNES had a 68000 chip it would have been soooo much better. The games could have been much more dynamic. Final Fight could have had more characters on the screen.

I would have liked the SNES to be backwards-compatible with NES games, much like the Megadrive was with SMS games. Unfortunately the superior CPU of the NES meant this wasn't possible

If the snes had a fast 60800 chip , it would have killed the NEO GEo in my view, its 2D chipset was so good

No f*cking way! In which department? The Neo Geo's 16-bit colour versus the SNES's 8-bit colour? The Neo's maximum of 380 on-screen sprites compared to the 128 of the SNES? And what about sound? The Neo Geo has the equivalent of both the SNES's PCM sound channels and the Megadrive's FM channels, all in the same unit. The comparitively limitless storage capacity of the Neo Geo and its ability to rip huge amounts of data from cartridge is another area the SNES simply can't compete in.

Put it this way, do you think it was only the weak CPU of the SNES that prevented games like Garou: MotW and Metal Slug 3 appearing on it? Many Neo Geo games were ported to the SNES and these were fighters, not CPU intensive shooters. Why were they so inferior to the original versions if the SNES had better 2D capabilities?

The Lynx is great hardware. Much better than the crappy NeoGeoPocket - or any other Handheld before the GBA.

Sorry to disagree yet again but for me the PCE GT was a much better handheld than the Lynx. Who cares about its sprite scaling when its pathetically low resolution and its paltry sixteen colours make everything on it look shat? Its sound chip blew too.

[Team Andromeda]

No f*cking way! In which department?

backround/Playfields for one

And what about sound? The Neo Geo has the equivalent of both the SNES's PCM sound channels and the Megadrive's FM channels,

Hey now hang on , I never made out that .

MotW and Metal Slug 3 appearing on it? Many Neo Geo games were ported to the SNES and these were fighters, not CPU intensive shooters. Why were they so inferior to the original versions if the SNES had better 2D capabilities?

And how much of that was also down to Memory . Just look at what a memory boost did for the PC Eng CD Rom. With the Arcade card , it had NEO GEO ports that put the MD and Snes to shame

[samanosuke]

With the Arcade card , it had NEO GEO ports that put the MD and Snes to shame

I have both Fatal Fury 2 and Fatal Fury Special for the PCE and to be honest, they're pretty shat. As for your arguments on the background/playfields being better on the SNES, I have never seen the SNES create a better sense of depth than the Neo. Even so, the Neo beats it in every other department.

[Team Andromeda]

Those games are massive Mega Monsters and came out late in the system life . I mean some of the latter NA@MI games looked bloody awesome , thanks to developers have plenty of know-how with the system , Under Defeat looks utterly brilliant .

And my point is , in many ways the PC Eng ports of some of the Neo Geo titles looked better than the MD or Snes versions, thanks to a big boost of memory
I'm pretty sure a 700 meg Snes game late inthe system life from say Konami would have knocked people socks off . That said I think a Saturn 700 Meg Monster game late in its life , would just about kill any 2D game out there in the gfx dept

[JazzFunk]

"What was the actual first Mode 7 racing-type game?" is what the original poster meant. What is it - surely it cannot be F-Zero?

I know Namco had Mode 7-type rotation effects going on in late 80s games like Assault and that helicopter one (Metal Hawk or Metal Fang or something?????), but as to whether those effects were integrated into a pre F-Zero racer - ...?????????

I'd like to know, actually, sad though that may be!

[Leon Retro]

Its 68000 could, but its tile-based graphics chip couldn't. There is nothing on the Megadrive that can touch No Second Prize or Combat Air Patrol as far as shifting polygons goes.

Sorry to disagree yet again but for me the PCE GT was a much better handheld than the Lynx. Who cares about its sprite scaling when its pathetically low resolution and its paltry sixteen colours make everything on it look shat? Its sound chip blew too.

I have to agree with you on all three counts. The Amiga was better at 3D than the MD; I did mean Amiga-esque 3D.

The Neo Geo was definitely the 2D master machine of the time. As you say, it has the colours, the sound, the sprite pushing abilities; everything technical aspect is much better than the MD & SNES.

The best handheld machine is the PCE-GT. I thought the LynxII was good. The Game Gear was o.k.

I really did hate the NeoPocket. I will never understand any praise it gets - because it's like a joke to my eyes. It should have offered sooo much more technically. I expected much more; even MD quality would have been nice.


When it comes down to it, it's all about the games. The NeoGeo is great, but I would rather have a SNES & MD. Both systems have more games I enjoy. I think all three systems offer lots of fun.

[samanosuke]

The NeoGeo is great, but I would rather have a SNES & MD. Both systems have more games I enjoy. I think all three systems offer lots of fun.

I have to agree with you here, though a few years ago I was heavily into 2D fighters so I almost exclusively played only AES and Dreamcast games.

As for the NGPC I have a certain affinity for the machine. I think the reason people love the machine is that for such a small library, the ratio of gems to stinkers is very high indeed. Add to that the fact that SNK vs Capcom: MotM is one of the finest 2D fighters on the planet and you've got yourself a nice machine to collect for. Specs aren't the be all and end all of handheld gaming. Put it this way, I'd take a GB mono over a Lynx any day of the week.

[Skull Commander]

Well off topic but I don't really rate the Lynx at all. I'v owned gameboy, game gear, lynx and Neo Geo pocket, and personally I would rate the gameboy above everything followed by the neo geo pocket, then the gamegear then the Lynx at the bottom by a large distance.

Although the gamegear had a fair amount of crap on it you had that adaptor to play master system games on it, which meant that you had some classics opened up like R-Type and Shinobi.