Max Payne 3 review

[rmoxon]

I agree with you (more so on the ammo) but tbh the aiming reticle was bloody tiny in the very 1st game .

The difference was in the first and second game a lot of the gun fights took place indoors in more intimate settings at closer range, plus the gameplay was a bit different, as I mentioned earlier the other games were all about you running up to people and unloading 5 ammo clips in their face at close range in shoot outs inspired by movies like The killer and hard boiled. They had a small aiming reticle but you had crap loads of ammo laying about and half the fun of the game was how gleefully you could waste thousands of bullets on a room full of enemies.

Max Payne 3 isnt like that, it requires the use of cover. Because enemies are really good shots and kill you very quickly you need to stay in that cover, which means that it's hard to reach the small amounts of ammo that are laying about the levels. So you have to rely on accuracy, going for head shots and careful uses of bullet time, but in this case the reticle works against the mechanics of the game, becuase you can't aim properly with it it.

[Golgo]

Trial and error. Another name for that might be practise.

[crocky-chocky]

Ok, so you think trial and error is acceptable in a fast paced shooter that is aiming for a slick and flowing cinematic experience?

Yep, for me, trial and error is a big part of videogames and part of why I'm enjoying this game so much. As long as the game is well designed or fun, I'll keep playing.

I don't think that just because a game is cinematic that there should be nothing but swift progression through the story, without an occasional curve ball. Stuff like that leads to profoundly boring videogames.

I don't think that's what Rockstar were going for anyway, not that I have a clue about this sort of stuff, but the cut-scenes certainly aren't fast paced, and something about how it's designed (maybe the rapid gameover screen and small loading times?) tells me that you're expected to die lots and gradually plow through each scene with spellbinding genius.

[rmoxon]

It's not well designed gameplay though, as someone who's played a lot of shooters I would as this is badly designed.

A few things like...

When you're in cover, if a grendades is thrown near you, max is simply too sluggish to survive, you need to double tap A which does a little tiny role out of cover and then you need for him to get to his feet before you can run, but this takes too long and the grenade just blows you up. I know max is old and it wouldn't be realistic if he dived about like Nathan Drake, but this is yet another thing that hampers the gameplay.

Another thing is the "save" moment that you experience if you lose all your health while you still have a pain killer left, it's a neat idea, yet this effect is triggered often when you have little or no bullets left, and since you can't reload during the effect, it means you can't kill an enemy to save yourself, so it ends up being a pointless mechanic 50% of the time and just adds to the frustration.

Then there's your bullet time dive... Useful for dodging enemeies attacks sure.... But it's also useful if you want to commit suicide, for instance, even Though max can't climb over railings and into water, if you happen to bullet time dive over railings you CAN enter the water... Which apparently is instant death, so I guess he can't swim. You're talking about the game being well designed from a gameplay stand point, but it's not, if it was well designed in terms of gameplay, you wouldn't be able to fall in the water and die just becuase you did a bullet time dive.

Theres also the way that when you die you get all your health back, this is proof that the developers knew that they had made the game too hard and couldn't be bothered to fix it, so instead they just thought "the player will undoubtedly die here, but it's ok, we will just give them all their health back when they die, that way we don't need to make a game that requires skill to play, we can just make an unfairly difficult one instead because we are lazy buggers.

Its all bad design, it has so many elements of bad design in fact, I really don't believe anybody bothered to play test it, if they had they would probably be ashamed of what they had made.

[JSR]

Yep, for me, trial and error is a big part of videogames

I think this is a big overgeneralization; trial and error has a part in many games, most I would argue, but not in all instances. One should be able to tackle situations in action games like these with the tools provided by the game (the controls) and adaptability, NOT memorization of enemy patterns. If one need to memorize every scenario to be victorious the immersion is immediately diminished in a game like Max Payne. I want to feel like he does when he encounters a ton of enemies, having to think on your feet and constantly change the current strategy to fit in with how the situation unfolds. That sort of gameplay gives me a much higher sense of excitement and feeling of actually being Max Payne. Rather than mechanically turning to face threats that are not yet there, simply because I know they will soon be there. Seeing as the game mechanics in this game has not really changed in the last ten years, compromising it's unique selling point - the cinematic quality of the action - seems like a big problem for the game.

[crocky-chocky]

Thing is, while the enemies always drop in from the same place, their behaviour differs brilliantly. The gunfights never pan out in the same way and there's definetly an instinctive element that keeps you on your toes. That's part of why it's rarely frustrating or boring.

Rmoxon, try dodging grenades with your shootdodge, works a treat!

[EvilBoris]

I'm not sure what evil boris is on about by saying its easy but this game is unfairly hard, even on normal.

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot this time

On fifa 13

What youre describing is down to you, the player, its not a fault of the game.

on MW3

The reason some people do better than others isn't really based on being a particularly good gamer IMO, I still stand by my statement that it's all about who sees who first, unless of course the person playing doesn't know how to aim with a controller, then it probably won't matter if he sees someone first or not.

Max Payne 3 isnt like that, it requires the use of cover. Because enemies are really good shots and kill you very quickly you need to stay in that cover, which means that it's hard to reach the small amounts of ammo that are laying about the levels. So you have to rely on accuracy, going for head shots and careful uses of bullet time, but in this case the reticle works against the mechanics of the game, becuase you can't aim properly with it it.

Jeez. If you are having trouble AIMING you need to play a different genre, and if you are struggling to see the reticule, perhaps you need an eye test. It's no worse than it was in the first 2 games, which also featured a Single dot as a reticule. You keep talking about the first games, but fail to mention that it is identical in this respect.

I also 100% disagree with the notion that the game relies on cover mechanic. I barely use it unless I am observing enemies, the reason I don't use it? You can't dive from cover, left or right or forwards, which is exactly what the game relies on. Perhaps you can and I haven't figured it out? If I could it would make the game even easier. If you aren't spending most of your time in bullet time, then you are bound to die.
It's not a cover shooter and at no time have I felt that it has forced me too, the techniques from the other games still work the same i.e. jumping down stairs in slow-mo to give yourself like 30 seconds to kill everyone. Climbing ontop of boxes and diving off for the same reason.

I actually think you are doing it wrong, you can kill almost every enemy in a room 2 or 3 dives, the only time I use any form of cover is diving behind it (Not using the sticky X cover button) so I have a moment to stand up and I can dive out again and kill off the remaining enemies, this usually only leaves you with 1 or 2 guys, the last of which always triggers "last man standing" so is a guaranteed kill anyway.

I've played some more now and the gameplay to cutscene ratio is getting better, the gameplay is very much the max payne I remember from 10+ years ago (scary). I'm still finding the presentation a bit OTT, the RGB splitting CRT effects is annoying as **** and I hate the words appearing on screen, they almost appear as if they are there as a self-congratulatory pat on the back that the script writers have put into a game to show people just how "COOL" their faux tarantino dialogue is.

I'm also a little puzzled about what Max Payne's motives are for doing what he is doing.
Max Payne : Killing junkies on a mission of revenge to find out who is responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

Max Payne 3 : Max is a bodyguard for hire.

It seems odd that he is doing what he is doing despite no suggestion of any kind of emotional connection with the people he is out to save.

[rmoxon]

Crocky-chocky are you sure it's max Payne 3 you're playing?... Because the one I am playing requires no instinctive element at all on the players part. It requires you to hide behind cover and repeatedly press the L trigger to pop up and lock onto the nearest enemy, shoot him and then wait for the next enemy to appear and do the same to them.... Then you get to watch a 30 minute cut scene before doing the same thing again. There's nothing else to try due to the games poor design. Actually that's not true, there's also the occasional moment where you get a little slow mo set piece, you usually have to replay this two or three times because it's so hard to aim and you're guaranteed not to kill all the enemies the first time simply because no one is that lucky.

I probabaly sound like I'm really being harsh on this, the truth is I'm enjoying it really, but it's also a frustrating game, both in the sense that it is unfairly difficult and in the sense that it's clear that with a bit of thought it could have been a much better game than it is.

[rmoxon]

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot this time

On fifa 13


on MW3




Jeez. If you are having trouble AIMING you need to play a different genre, and if you are struggling to see the reticule, perhaps you need an eye test. It's no worse than it was in the first 2 games, which also featured a Single dot as a reticule. You keep talking about the first games, but fail to mention that it is identical in this respect.

I also 100% disagree with the notion that the game relies on cover mechanic. I barely use it unless I am observing enemies, the reason I don't use it? You can't dive from cover, left or right or forwards, which is exactly what the game relies on. Perhaps you can and I haven't figured it out? If I could it would make the game even easier. If you aren't spending most of your time in bullet time, then you are bound to die.
It's not a cover shooter and at no time have I felt that it has forced me too, the techniques from the other games still work the same i.e. jumping down stairs in slow-mo to give yourself like 30 seconds to kill everyone. Climbing ontop of boxes and diving off for the same reason.

I actually think you are doing it wrong, you can kill almost every enemy in a room 2 or 3 dives, the only time I use any form of cover is diving behind it (Not using the sticky X cover button) so I have a moment to stand up and I can dive out again and kill off the remaining enemies, this usually only leaves you with 1 or 2 guys, the last of which always triggers "last man standing" so is a guaranteed kill anyway.

I've played some more now and the gameplay to cutscene ratio is getting better, the gameplay is very much the max payne I remember from 10+ years ago (scary). I'm still finding the presentation a bit OTT, the RGB splitting CRT effects is annoying as **** and I hate the words appearing on screen, they almost appear as if they are there as a self-congratulatory pat on the back that the script writers have put into a game to show people just how "COOL" their faux tarantino dialogue is.

I'm also a little puzzled about what Max Payne's motives are for doing what he is doing.
Max Payne : Killing junkies on a mission of revenge to find out who is responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

Max Payne 3 : Max is a bodyguard for hire.

It seems odd that he is doing what he is doing despite no suggestion of any kind of emotional connection with the people he is out to save.

You clearly haven't read what I said properly, I know the first two games had a small reticle, but like I said the difference in gameplay meant it wasn't an issue in the first two games, mainly because you had so many bullets, plus the enemies couldn't aim properly which helped.

Also, the reason he becomes a body guard is explained early on in the game

->Open Spoiler<-

he kills a gang bosses son and needs to get out of new York, and he's offered a job in Another country so he takes it

.

If you haven't got that far yet it will explain why you still think this is an easy game... Once you get further into it you will be dying constantly, I promise.

[EvilBoris]

I'm past that bit, but I usually go watch paint dry/fall asleep when the cutscenes come on.

[rmoxon]

I'm past that bit, but I usually go watch paint dry/fall asleep when the cutscenes come on.

Bloody hell, I hope you have a lot of paint handy for this game then.

[rmoxon]

Also, EvilBoris, "last man standing" is actually triggered when you lose all your life but have some painkillers left... Its not becuase there is only one enemy left.

As I mentioned earlier it's a neat mechanic but doesn't always work becuase if you happen to have no bullets in your gun when it activates then you are a dead man, becuase you can't reload while it is in effect.

[EvilBoris]

Well there we go, i wasnt paying attentio to the tutorial either it appears, I've not had that happen yet even on hard with all auto aim off, maybe I'm just remembering to reload my gun before I go into a gunfight? 16 bullets in a dual wielded pistol is more than enough to headshot 4 enemies. Every single enemy you kill drops ammo, I've had little problem with that too, even using an SmG or AR gives you 20 bullets worth of precision too.

[EvilBoris]

Bloody hell, I hope you have a lot of paint handy for this game then.

I'm feeling quite spritely from the fumes and the extra sleep I've had.

[rmoxon]

I've not had that happen yet, maybe I'm just more situationally aware than you are and remember to reload my gun before I go into a gunfight? As evey single enemy you kill drops ammo, I've had little problem with that too.

Umm, Boris, last man standing doesn't take place at the start of a gun fight (unless you run in and get shot to bits before killing anyone else). As I said it is triggered whenever you lose all your life... And chances are many people will lose all their life at a moment when they have little or no ammo, which makes triggering it a little redundant.

If you're losing all your life with a full ammo clip I'd say you're even worse at the game than I am.