Prince Of Persia

[PeteJ]

The only time I had trouble was...

Exactly where I am at the moment, I won't give up though...

How do you do this mega-move then? I'm sure I've never been told about such a thing before...

[Geoff D]

The only time I had trouble was...

Exactly where I am at the moment, I won't give up though...

How do you do this mega-move then? I'm sure I've never been told about such a thing before...

On the XBox (the version I played) -

You need all of your power tanks to be full - hold the right trigger, then press the left trigger. The enemies will freeze & you can finish them off in double quick time with a few sword swipes - you don't collect any sand back though. I took out the first lot of easier enemies (reds) by normal means, then waited until I was surrounded by the harder blues to use it.

[Brats]

There's quite a bit of depth to the combat.

I couldn't find any depth at all.

The part of the game I criticised in particular forced the player into combat in an open court yard, no opportunity for jumping off walls etc.

'Tis called a learning curve m8 . There are a few places fairly early on where the game hands you some fights in open areas, mainly to get the player used to the basics. Most of the combat though is in fairly built up areas.

There is also the issue of knowing when to use your dagger. Early on the monster are pretty crap and will not attack when you use the dagger, but later on they will. The skill with multiple enemies is to knock one enemy down and then knock another down using the correct flips so that the prince ends up in a safe position to stab the first monster with a dagger before it revives.

The beauty of the combat system is that it uses only three buttons and yet in the right hands allows the player to pull off a plethora of moves.

[NiceButDim]

There is also the issue of knowing when to use your dagger. Early on the monster are pretty crap and will not attack when you use the dagger, but later on they will.

I found that as long as nobody was winding up attack you at the point at which you press the button to use your dagger, you always managed to do it in safety.

I also found battles to be quite repetitive in so far as the "jump-over-them-and-swipe-them" technique worked for almost everybody, except the blue guys who where easily dispatched with the "bounce-off-the-wall" trick.

Occasionally I'd manage to string some cool moves together, but all in all I though the combat detracted from the excellent bits inbetween.

[Papercut]

'Tis called a learning curve m8 . There are a few places fairly early on where the game hands you some fights in open areas...

The area I described was 1/2 way through the game.

I wouldn't really call that depth, doesn't sound much different from Final Fight to me.

Looking at it differently... do you think the combat helps enhance the game? From what I played of it, the game would benefit from less/simpler combat and more/mainly puzzles.

[Concept]

You need all of your power tanks to be full - hold the right trigger, then press the left trigger. The enemies will freeze & you can finish them off in double quick time with a few sword swipes - you don't collect any sand back though. I took out the first lot of easier enemies (reds) by normal means, then waited until I was surrounded by the harder blues to use it.

You know, I didn't even realise that move was available during my first playthrough of the game.

In hindsight, on a couple of occasions it would have helped a great deal.

Exactly where I am at the moment, I won't give up though...

Yeah... That bit isn't easy at all. It took me a few tries to get past, mostly because the princess kept dying rather than me having trouble killing the enemies. But stick with it, as Prince Of Persia is a game which progressively gets better towards the end. Some of the sights and set pieces near the climax are absolutely jaw dropping.

I wouldn't really call that depth, doesn't sound much different from Final Fight to me.

I'd say Prince Of Persia's combat does hold depth. For a start, you effectively have control over the flow and development as to how fights unfold. You can slow time, meaning that all the creatures descend into a slumber while you move around in normal speed. It's possible to reverse time so if one tactic fails then you can always rewind and try another. If it gets too hard, as Charlie Angel pointed out, it's possible to stop time and destroy all the enemies for a limited duration depending on your preference. This effectively means you can examine and judge what to do next in a situation, if you need a bit of time to weigh things up. Not only that, but if you don't want to stop the whole screen it's possible to selectively choose individual enemies for you to freeze, meaning you can decide which foe to hold back for later and which to deal with immediately. In other words, the order and structure with how you decide to tackle the enemies is up to your own choice.

As for the Prince's physical moves... He can roll along the floor and evade moves in slightly different ways depending on how close he is to an enemy. It's also possible to block creatures, meaning you can lure weaker forms to you, block and then quickly counter, leaving most of your sand tanks for use against harder foe. You have to constantly think on the go as the combat in the game is all about management of energy resources, how you best deploy them, allied with timed use of your physical capabilities.

It's possible to launch not only strategic counter attacks during fighting, but also specific variations which allow you to quickly pull a move off after blocking. This is especially useful because the game lets you pull off counter retrieves... Allowing defence to repel a rapid attack, where you can consequently do a quick counter retrieve, sometimes killing off a creature in an instant. So it's all about luring enemies into your defensive posturings, and then using those posturings as another method of attack when the timing is right. Balancing when to defend and attack is essential in Prince Of Persia.

Then there's the environment.... The architecture ends up mostly acting as a template in the intensity for how a battle unfolds. Essentially the level design defines the scope and range of your physical prowess, making you adjust your tactical response in relation to its layout. The context with how and when you can use your moves is practically embued within the range and complexity of the surroundings. This obviously highlights the Prince's vulnerability and dependance with how he uses his physique in conjunction with the environment. So for example, in a large open courtyard, the ability to wall rebound isn't available much, meaning you have to rely on rolling and evading... Yet because you're not situated in a claustrophobic space, the ability to lure different packs of enemies away from each other means you can categorise and slowly pick off different groups, by using the space in drawing specific threats to you. In close knit areas it's possible to vault, wall-rebound and confuse the AI by moving in several directions using various moves quicky against the architecture. The relatively weak path-finding in Prince of Perisa works to it's advantage in my opinion, because in the more built-up areas you can use the environment to confuse and bewilder the enemy by using what is around to your best advantage.

Looking at it differently... do you think the combat helps enhance the game? From what I played of it, the game would benefit from less/simpler combat and more/mainly puzzles.

I think the combat definately fits in with the narrative flow of the game. Look at it from a storyline perspective... The Prince has gone to war with his father to retrieve a mysterious dagger. Upon getting back to their palace, the weapon's power is unleashed turning the whole army into warped sand creatures. Now, because the opening chapter of the game is essentially focused around obtaining the dagger, it means right from the off you feel as if you are part of an empire. The atmosphere and narrative is drawn towards you feeling as if you're taking part in a raid, meaning when (eventually) the raid goes wrong there is at least some justification as to why you are being hunted down by enemies. If you take the sand creatures out of the game it would unbalance and create inconsistencies within the narrative structure in my opinion.

Suddenly the castle is full of people being turned into sand creatures. Then it isn't. Where did they all disappear to?

The reason Prince Of Persia uses its combat as a theatrical device is in getting the message over to the player that they're not only in control of an extremely agile man, but one who can fight his way out of trouble if need be. This automatically expands the development of your character, because not only is he an explorer, but someone who can handle himself against others too. Fighting the enemies reinforces the idea that you're in control of someone who is not only in mastery of his own gymnastic flexability, but also his confidence with regards to confrontation.

Another, and perhaps more gameplay-specific reason as to why the combat is more than just functional, is because it helps diversify the proceedings and adds tension. As much as you and I would like this to be a puzzle-only game, Ubisoft have to think about the players who would simply become bored by such a focused pull towards a single element. I agree that I would love to see a game of this type focus on its core strength of atmosphere and exploration... Yet I personally think we already have that game in the form of ICO.

Prince Of Persia's background and character is aimed at a wider demographic. He's stronger and more astute than characters who are usually positioned in games like this. Therefore to attract a broader audience, he's been designed to contain dual roles of both an avid explorer and nimble warrior. Perhaps simply so people don't get bored, and can relate to a stereotype or associate more comfortably with their on-screen persona. I agree that the placing of these battles are actually poorly implemented.... Mostly they're either too frequent or stutteringly infrequent, all too often upsetting the pace and rhythm set elsewhere.

Although I think the fighting which goes on inside these moments is wonderfully implemented, as for the actual choice of when they happen... Well, in hindsight that's probably one of the game's biggest flaws.

Yet, I still believe the fighting is more than justified by the prince's character type, narrative context and relevance towards the combination of genres Ubisoft were clearly trying to fuse. Remember, the original editions in this series were focused on a variety of puzzle solving, exploration and combat. Maybe pulling away from those roots would have harmed the latest iteration's connection with its heritage.

Those are my thoughts.

[Brats]

The point about Ico is well made, but that masterpiece definately had points where the combat seemed like a chore between the puzzles, but it was necessary to keep a sense of tension.

POP's combat is hardly in the same league as say Viewtiful Joe, but then you wouldn't expect it to be. Next to Ico though, it's could be VF4 Evo!

[Concept]

POP's combat is hardly in the same league as say Viewtiful Joe, but then you wouldn't expect it to be. Next to Ico though, it's could be VF4 Evo!

Exactly. I'm not suggesting that Prince Of Persia is being examined in this thread by anyone from the persepective of a different genre, at least not in relation to the one it's already in... Yet the game's depth with regards to combat shouldn't be thought of in the same manner as a beat'em'up. It's all about time and place/form and function.

In context of it's self, I think the fighting in Prince Of Persia works well.

[JibberX]

IIRC the combat in Tomb Raider was pretty mediocre, but they didn't slap you around with it every freaking room. Unfortunately the nature of the beast is that people want to kill things, imagine finishing an entire game based on moving a single block...killing a manifestation of evil aparently rocks more than pushing a lever

[Concept]

IIRC the combat in Tomb Raider was pretty mediocre, but they didn't slap you around with it every freaking room. Unfortunately the nature of the beast is that people want to kill things, imagine finishing an entire game based on moving a single block...killing a manifestation of evil aparently rocks more than pushing a lever

Gaming as a whole is (by its very nature) these days violent. That's just the way it is.

Like I stated previously, the pacing and placement of the actual combat is poor in Prince Of Persia, but what takes place within those moments often isn't.

At least it wasn't for me. But then opinion is only opinion.

[RLench]

I must be in a minority. I really enjoy the fights in PoP. I don't think they're poorly paced at all, although I would like fights with 3 or 4 enemies inbetween the huge fights with 20+

The actual fighting though is very enjoyable IMO. The controls and range of moves are completely right IMO - if you want to do something, you probably can do it. And you can probably do it first time, without having to really think about it. If it fails, then rewind time for 15 seconds and try again. Problem solved

If done properly the fights are very, very impressive to watch yet incredible tense to participate in. I've done things in the fights that would make excellent promo material for Ubisoft...they need to contact me

How could people not enjoy a fight where you backflip over a sword swipe, roll under the attack of another enemy, block another enemies' attack whilst kicking another in the head, cartwheel behind another enemy, then vaulting over him while you slit his throat and then proceed to run up a wall, flip over and then hack and slash your way through the wall of enemies. Then do it all over again

btw brilliant post, Concept. Some excellent points IMO

[Papercut]

POP's combat is hardly in the same league as say Viewtiful Joe, but then you wouldn't expect it to be. Next to Ico though, it's could be VF4 Evo!

I'd rather have Ico's combat, but thats because I preferred Ico's setup of having to solve puzzles, watch Yorda, and fend off enemies at the same time. *

The see-sawing PoP gameplay of puzzle-combat-puzzle-combat just grated a little for me.

... and by having depth, I meant having some enjoyable, skilfull element, which I don't think PoP's combat does have. Just a few showy special moves.

Like I stated previously, the pacing and placement of the actual combat is poor in Prince Of Persia, but what takes place within those moments often isn't.

Thats really what I was getting at, when you are in full puzzle-solving flow, the combat is just tiresome and gets in the way. Unlike some, I don't feel as if the combat had enough enjoyable aspects to redeem it, or make those interruptions worthwhile.



* I played the pal version, which has more random encounters, if that doesn't tally with what you remember.

[JibberX]

I think paper and I are in the same boat about the combat, it really did seemed like a button mashin' fest. Must be missing something real bad here.

[evilmatt]

I personally enjoyed the combat - a couple of set-pieces were a little frustrating, but none took more than a couple of retries to get past. I think you get out of the combat what you put in - if you're just going to hammer away at the buttons then it'll quickly wear thin, but if you are constantly thinking, using the full repertoire of moves and time powers to counter the enemy then there's sufficient depth and variety to be found. I think my only criticism would be the length of the game - I finished it in two evenings play - but at least the combat (for me ) and the gymnastic exploration through the levels make this game fun enough to warrant replaying it several times.

I wonder if they tweaked the combat engine to use martial arts instead of swords, and added a lock-on system for gunplay, how much better a Matrix game this engine could make than the official one

[NiceButDim]

I think paper and I are in the same boat about the combat, it really did seemed like a button mashin' fest. Must be missing something real bad here.

Whilst I didn't think it was quite button bashing, I found it highly repetitve with the same move suckering them each time. I'm hopeless at computer games but I finished PoP with ease and I didn't find the fighting bits challenging at all.