Soulless Games

[Lyris]

Two things need to happen before gaming is taken seriously:

1. It needs to stop trying to be Hollywood's little brother.

2. It needs to stop all these trendy pretentions of maturity through adolescent whimsy.

Have to agree 100% there... when games try to take on Hollywood it sometimes just appears as embarassing.

[Alf-Life]

I agree.... although I can see why games try to copy Hollywood... I literally just got Ikaruga through the post like an hour ago and I'm loving loving loving it... however, after playing, yes the gameplay's brilliant but you do want less intensive 'arcade' games sometimes, and adding Hollywood-esque stories to those 'high-level' games can provide respite and emotional attachment to some elements - although the emotional content of gaming as a whole is relatively low these days.

[Ady]

Can't imagine Ikaruga with an "emotionally engaging" story though.

In fact, the very thought of something so pretentious almost makes me want to gag.

[Alf-Life]

Eh? I wasn't talking about giving Ikaruga a story. My point was that some games tend to ape Hollywood because a game like Ikaruga which is to use my earlier example almost like 99% game and 1% narrative can get overwhleming and headache inducing, sometimes you want pace and lulls like any temporal art such as movies and music.

Edit: Looking at that above post, when I said 'those' games, I meant I guess games like Zelda or Metal Gear Solid, not Ikaruga, apologies for the wording.

[Captain-N]

The narrative or "storyline" in games will become better as the industry, (or atleast the interesting parts of the industry) figures out how to best combine the plot with the gameplay.

Long cutscenes such as the ones in Metal Gear, Resident Evil, Zone of the Enders, etc is slowly starting to bore me, no matter how well produced they are. Especielly if they depict cool, over-the-top action you are unable to reproduce in-game. That's really just pointing out the limitations of the gameplay. Who wants to see Snake super-stylishly drop-kick an enemy in bullet-time when it's completely impossible to do something remotely similar when you control him?

I think stories and settings are very important to most action/adventure games. If Halo didn't try to establish some kind of future war setting with mankind pushed against the ropes against an alien invader, it would just be military looking types shooting purple weirdos in odd places.

A few good examples of nice storytelling so far this generation (not refering to the quality of the plot itself, but how it's fused with the gameplay):

Prince of Persia - Lots of in-game dialogue between the two main characters. The princess really grows on the hero as he discusses her to himself while jumping and swordfighting.

Halo 1 - So far the narrative in the first one seems better than the second. Most likely due to the second one's reliance on longer cutscenes and less in-game Cortana-dialogue and remarks from the fellow marines.

Ico - The plot is really subtle and tender, not using more cutscenes that it needs to. One can argue that it's really the elegance and beauty of the technically well-crafted Yorda npc and the great overall presentation of the castle that makes you care about the characters fate. Nevertheless the game galantly achieves in creating an emotional interest in the outcome of the game that really goes beyond the gameplay itself. It's when players starts asking questions and starts wondering about the game world, the characters history and motivations you know you have succeded in creating an interesting game.

Half Life 2 - Love how It's really void of of real "cutscenes" and more rely on in-game scripted sequences and npc's. Look the wrong direction and you missed it sorta... Still, it creates the impression of really being there.

For me personally, I thought KOTOR was kinda interesting (as someone really used to completely linear japanese games). When playing typical Square games, I?m always concerned and worried with "doing something wrong" or failing to gather some object, failing to beat some enemy or miss out on some hidden mission, cutscene or better ending.
When playing KOTOR I forgot all about that. There was no "right" or "wrong", I just tried to react as closely as I should have done myself was I in that situation by choosing the dialogue I thought more reflected my persona. I also didn't linger to long in places I found uninteresting and sometimes spent a whole lotta time in settings I liked, kinda like real-life, no?

[Crispin]

Can't imagine Ikaruga with an "emotionally engaging" story though.

In fact, the very thought of something so pretentious almost makes me want to gag.

Well then, the Japanese must be puking all over the place then.

[Paul3704]

In fact, the very thought of something so pretentious almost makes me want to gag.

This in itself is hilariously ****ing funny.

[Alf-Life]

Captain-N: perfect post, I agree 100%.

In fact regarding your point about MGS, I heard Bungie came up with a lot of the Halo gameplay 'moments' by trying to immitate some of the best 'movie' moments.
I did actually notice Half-Life 1 seemed based on parts of 'The Rock', with Half-Life 2 leaning towards that ....slightly. :/
But yeah, if companies could make things they think is cool to put into a cutscene work in-game, that's perfect for gaming.

[hankwangford]

There's an OBSCENE backstory to Ikaruga with ancient weapons and ****, but it's not detailed within the game.

Although to counter Kaladron, what storyline does Tetris have??? Russians invent colourful shapes and strive to build oddly shaped nuclear missile?

[Alf-Life]

I always thought the blocks represented buildings :P ...but yeah, spot on. Same with Space Invaders, really... there's no story. I guess there's a backstory and a premise, but no real storytelling.

[Crispin]

There's an OBSCENE backstory to Ikaruga with ancient weapons and ****, but it's not detailed within the game.

No, it's not detailed within the western versions of the game.
Anyhow, it's a **** story. And a crap ending. One doesn't really identify with

->Open Spoiler<-

the hero's death and sacrifice considering how many goddamn times you die in trying to reach the end.

[Pacman555]

For soulless, see any of the countless racing games in which you compete for the 'respect' of a fictional gangland figure. Who's minions speak like pikies. Wid dem cars 'n' **** innit! YER! WIKID!

[Fireproofradiator]

I think the bit about Hitman, and Captain-N's mention of accidentally looking the wrong way in HL2 are really important because they're both examples of the player being in control, right or wrong, of what happens. That's what thrills me, and it's no different from the thrill of getting a 21 link chain in Ikaruga (not that I've any experience of that). There's emotional content there, and although we could try and quantify it by saying one's deeper than the other I'd say they were equally valid...

[Alf-Life]

Pacman: Yo, on da street you need an iden'ity. I'm whiplash. *whispers*Whiiiiiplashshshsh!*

FireProof: I do agree, although I think they could be improved with little things like perhaps if an NPC (Father Gregor for example) first called out to you, and then only said something important once you were looking at him (of course, you wouldn't need your crosshair dead-on him to activate this, but perhaps just on-screen or something).

[Fireproofradiator]

You're right. I watched a mate playing HL2 the other night and he was missing all the visual gags with the professors 'cat' in the lab (hope that's cryptic enough not to be a spoiler...) for instance because he wasn't quick enough on the mouse...

When you do get the hang of it though, in that particular sequence it's tremendously satisfying to hear someone call your name and swing your head to see what they want, then turn back to watch the other characters conversing on the other side of the room etc while you're in the middle of being talked to by someone else.

I think the significant thing though is that the only 'actions' you really have over the course of the sequence I mention (which is pretty lengthy) are to put on an item of clothing and plug a socket in the wall. Valve make a virtue of the characters 'blankness' as far as this lack of interaction is concerned, but it's forced by necessity. Bringing in deeper involvement in the world (whereby you can interrupt conversations, side with character's arguments, stand in their way, kiss them etc, to think of the first things that come into my head) would be broadening the remit so much that it would probably double the game's budget.

Not that I'd put it past Valve next time out. Like I said before they seem to have nailed the action sequences so completely that they've got to be looking elsewhere for their fix.