Cell

[charlesr]

When a new processor is being pushed through the development/production tooling phases, the manufacturer is normally keen to hype it as much as possible, extolling its virtues and ensuring a large market for it upon release.

The Cell chip is being manufactured by IBM while Sony and Toshiba intend to start putting it in their devices at the end of this year, and yet there is virtually no hype apart from the initial press releases (and the amount of secrecy surrounding the project is large). This must mean that Sony and Toshiba are expecting to make enough money back from their portion of the $400m investment, just from selling their own Cell embedded products.

This may however mean that Cell does reach the market prevelance it was designed for (it's designed to support a variety of OS) if it's just used to power PS3s and Tosh TVs.

On the plus-side it's a highly modular design, so each part of the chip can be upgraded when an improved module is developed (e.g. faster Power processor) - will we see later PS3s sporting more powerful Cell chips? Thus taking consoles further down the road towards a user friendly PC and destroying the usual 5 year cycle, with games released later in the life having options to reduce detail etc.

At least the Cell should be easier to develop for than the PS2 since it handles the details of farming out the processing activities to the various chip areas available.

[eastyy]

As far as new consoles i never give in to the hype when i saw the first few ps2 games i just felt they were higher resolution psone games and a few fancy effects.Thankfully it soon changed though

[Soi]

It is obvious what Sony intend to do with the chip, but what about Toshiba? Anyone know what they want such a powerful new chip for or is it still secret? I can't see, for example, how a TV or a DVD player would need that much grunt.

[Kotatsu Neko]

From what I have read about Cell it's uses are rather limited and it would make a poor general purpose CPU. Apple apparently looked at Cell when they were deciding to drop Power PC, but went away unimpressed.

Cell is essentially one general purpose CPU core with several very limited additional cores. The contrasts with the multi-core Pentium and Power PCs which have mutliple full size cores.

It also means Cell will be difficult to program efficiently, and some are speculating that the first wave of PS3 games will only use the single, full core and ignore the rest. This could mean that first gen XB360 games run better than first gen PS3 games.

[RobN]

It is obvious what Sony intend to do with the chip, but what about Toshiba? Anyone know what they want such a powerful new chip for or is it still secret? I can't see, for example, how a TV or a DVD player would need that much grunt.

Picture processing comes to mind. Denon's ?2,500 top of the range dvd player has a 'Realtor' processing chip capable ot 1 teraflop that's there to scale dvds up to 1080i, 720p etc. Imagine Toshiba, Sony etc decide to use the Cell chip in their tvs to scale up all pictures to whatever the native resolution of the tv is. Perhaps even 1920 by 1080p @ 60hz. You could also use the Cell in dvd players to scale dvds into high definition in real time obviously. Perhaps the chip could be used in sound processing in amps, tvs etc!?

[Soi]

Good point -picture processing needs a lot of raw power. Bring on new tech I say.

[charlesr]

From what I have read about Cell it's uses are rather limited and it would make a poor general purpose CPU.

It's designed primarily for Games and multimedia (and has GFX acceleration and networking built into the chip).
Contrary to what you said above, the Cell dishes out the processing to the SPE's, so the developer doesn't need to worry or care.

[El Leone]

From what I've read and heard (from none xbox 360 sites), The Cell doesn't work in a general purpose kind of way and isn't that great with the Graphics and mutimedia.......Although Im not denying that its not a power beast, Just saying that I've heard its not as great as its being claimed to be.

[Baroque]

CELL is this generations "Emotion Engine", a great design experiment and pushes the boundaries of CPU and chipset design, but it's not going to be the breakthrough which the hypemachine would like to portray it as.

I do expect CELL to make it's way into Sony's TVs. The PS3 will output 1080p, they'll need TVs to support that, as has been mentioned those TVs will need serious grunt to do so and Sony has CELL in it's back pocket.

It's a logical match.

Beyond that, I don't see CELL making it's way into mainstream computers, it's pretty much is a custom job for one customer, Sony. As for the XBox 360 Vs PS3 CPU guff, well there are a lot of hardware nerds who need to be beaten with a rubber hose. The difference in graphics between these two systems isn't going to be as dramatic as the difference in graphics between the XBox and the PS2.

Indeed both companies appear to be using non-graphics related features to sell their systems.

[Kotatsu Neko]

It's designed primarily for Games and multimedia (and has GFX acceleration and networking built into the chip).
Contrary to what you said above, the Cell dishes out the processing to the SPE's, so the developer doesn't need to worry or care.

I've read some pretty in depth (and dull!) articles about cell, and I don't think that's the case. General opinion seems to be that it's entitely up the developer to specify which tasks go to which sub CPU. And so a poor/lazy/overly rushed coder (which covers about 90% of the game industry!) will not be able to make full use of the cell.

The learning curve will be steep enough just to make use of 'regular' multi-core CPUs such as the Power PCs in XB360 and Revolution, let alone the very specialised Cell.

[Kotatsu Neko]

The difference in graphics between these two systems isn't going to be as dramatic as the difference in graphics between the XBox and the PS2.

Indeed both companies appear to be using non-graphics related features to sell their systems.

True in theory, but one thing which might make a difference is that MS are insiting that EVERY game runs 720p with 4x AA. Sony are not. It's not inconceivable then that a developer may choose to write a PS3 game to 480p, or perhaps with no anti-aliasing.

On the flip side this could mean PS3 games have better frame rates.

[razu]

It is obvious what Sony intend to do with the chip, but what about Toshiba? Anyone know what they want such a powerful new chip for or is it still secret? I can't see, for example, how a TV or a DVD player would need that much grunt.

Maybe they'll use it in one of their NUCLEAR REACTORS: http://www.toshiba.co.jp/product/abw...lant/plant.htm

[charlesr]

General opinion seems to be that it's entitely up the developer to specify which tasks go to which sub CPU.

It's possible I've been misinformed then. I'll check.

[Baroque]

True in theory, but one thing which might make a difference is that MS are insiting that EVERY game runs 720p with 4x AA. Sony are not. It's not inconceivable then that a developer may choose to write a PS3 game to 480p, or perhaps with no anti-aliasing.

On the flip side this could mean PS3 games have better frame rates.

Very true, but I can imagine a very big stick being wielded out of Japan if second generation games look crummier than whatever the 360 is offering. I think the Sony strategy is unchanged from the PS2, "We don't care what the hell it looks like so long as it's stable and can occupy a slot on a retailers shelf".

Combat by catalogue size if you will, and as Sony won't have a headstart this time they'll probably be looking to flood the place with product as soon as possible.

Yes I expect the learning curve to be present, but lets face it games developers bitch loudly over everything. I can't recall a system they didn't moan about, and claim that it'll be a "nightmare" to develop for because it's "so different" than what they are used to.

As per usual they'll whine to anyone who'll listen for a good 18 months after they get their hands on final dev kits and will just buckle down anyway.

[charlesr]

but it's not going to be the breakthrough which the hypemachine would like to portray it as. Indeed both companies appear to be using non-graphics related features to sell their systems

This was my point really. There's been almost zero hype about the Cell chip and it's gratifying that the PS3 is going to be sold on the quality of its games and features/benefits rather than the mystical ability of the emotion engine equivalent.