A general observation about graphics

[Ady]

I think in another 10 years time, we'll probably look back at games such as the Wind Waker, Katamari Damacy etc and find that yes, they look "retro" in the way that SNES games do, but at the same time, they are still great to look at and play.

I'm not sure about that. KD and WW (in paticular) are both very stylised. Look at Yoshi's Island on the SNES, it's getting on a fiar bit now, but it still one of the best looknig 2D games ever (imo).

[vertigo]

Personally I think it's just a case that 2D has had alot longer to get where it is (even back in the 90s 2D games had been around a good 20 years) whereas textured 3D gaming has just broken the 10 year mark.

I'm not sure that really matters. Consoles such as XBox and GC are powerful enough to render really nice graphics. I think the worst thing is that these systems get games released that look alright but that have atrocious framerates.
With the next-gen coming in and boasting 1080* res output modes and all sorts of graphical features, to be quite honest I couldn't give a **** if the games have framerates like Turok 2. If you're going to make it look like real life you can damn well make it move like real life too.

[eastyy]

well like i said in my first post it was just when i was playing some games last night.In my eyes
streetfighter 2 over 13 years old that doesnt look dated
thunderforce 5 (or many other games) only 5 or 6 years old that looks badly dated

of course they all play well

Actually i played a friends nes many many years ago i couldnt stand the terrible flickering gave me a headache.

[vertigo]

That is probably because of the great leaps 3D has made, whereas we pretty much know what to expect from 2D now and even the cut-down sprites in SNES SF can make us come over all nostalgic and happy.
Watching a SNES or Neo shove around a few sprites and rotate and scale them is appreciated a lot more by me than watching an XBox render a very realistic looking marine, because games for me are about escaping from the realities of life (rent, bills, blah) in the first place.
Plus: pixel art is sexy.

[eastyy]

What did everyone think of donkey kong country for the snes when they first saw it?

[vertigo]

I thought DKC was amazing, if I had to choose between DKC and YI based solely on graphics it would be YI but it'd be extremely close and only because of my love of that sort of pixel art.
Even though I knew exactly how it was done at the time (i.e. I didn't believe the hype that it was rendering 3D models and all the talk of SGI workstations, they were just snapshots of the models used as sprites) it was still pretty damn gorgeous. The fact that the theme extended to everything else, all the characters, environments and objects, really made it quite an achievement and made it very easy to forgive any nitpicking about spare white or black pixels or jagged bits on sprite edges.
Plus the ice levels were lovely and the music is still excellent, especially the mine cart and industry levels from DKC and the brambles and lava music from DKC2.

[Ish]

I thought DKC looked amazing. Saw it on my mates SNES and my jaw dropped. Mainly because I'd never seen anything like it before. But I never fell in love with the style.

Yoshi's Island on the other hand. One of the best games ever with the finest 2d graphics ever.

But back on topic. I agree with what was said a page or two back. By the time of the 16-bit consoles technical limitations weren't an issue to the same degree they were with 3d graphics on the PS1. As someone said earlier 2d games (on the Spectrum for example) have dated badly - again because there were considerable technical constraints that actually prevented artists from expressing themselves fully. Though thats not to say some of those games don't look good! I love the elegant simplicity of the graphics in Thrust for example - that's kind of timeless.

[Freddo]

lots of psone and saturn games were rendered in really ultra low resolution (like 320x240 sort of low) too which definitly didnt help.

[Leon Retro]

32bit games were generally low-res and without filtering. You take an old 3D title and put some filtering on it and it can look reasonable though. Another problem is the low-poly models- and the way things were animated and moved in general. All this goes together to make most games look raw blocky with all the smoothness of a concrete slab!

There are still a few old 3D games that stand the test of time though- but not many!

When it comes to buying retro titles- I tend to stick to 2D. Great 2D games such as Yoshi's Island will always look great imo. Just look at the GBA- all the Mario games are still being played and enjoyed today- people don't say " This looks crap " and the control and movement of 2D classics makes for experiences that will always be a pleasure!

I guess even the best 3D games such as God Of War and DMC3 will look and play like a joke in 10years time- maybe even 2!

[MikeRox]

I think they'll start to age alot less now. people don't say the 7800 version of Pole Position 2 still looks great and has stood the test of time ;p

[Yoshitsune]

My problem is i want to see the pinnacle of 2d games.I want a game.With hires graphics beautiful animation and well drawn animated backgrounds and smart effects.I suppose like castlevania symphony of the night just taken up several notches

What about the 1st Contra game on PS2,that did'nt look too bad,what did you think with referance to what you are saying above?

[eastyy]

Its good but i mean hand drawn animation rather than any polygonal stuff.

more along the lines of alien hominid but much better looking (PS2 version reminds me to much of the flash version)

Its a rock hard game though

[Kubrick]

2) 2d graphics do not really age

Is the correct answer.

The graphic design and style is the most important thing. As long as it's not too primitive on a technical level (ie: flickering sprites, jerky-scrolling and what-have-you) then a 2D game with bags of style & character in it's graphics will live forever.

Yoshi's Island is a good example, and an even older one is Rainbow Islands...Someone please tell me how you could make that game look any better using hi-res polygons.

[eastyy]

I think with certain 2d graphics there is more charm hand drawn they feel like they have alot of attention made to it (particulary if there well animated).With 3d graphics its motion capture or levels made up in a building blocks style editor

[Leon Retro]

Look at cartoons. You have the low-end stuff like He-Man- the more surreal stuff like Samurai Jack and then you have top-end cgi stuff like The Incredibles. Each one of these is succesful- people like variety imo!

The same with videogames. People brought-up in the 8bit/16bit era witnessed the evolution of 2D from Donkey Kong to Yoshis Island. A long the way 2D has enabled surreal looking games- anime looking games- and more realistic looking games etc.... People once again enjoy different styles and variety.

Imo any serious gamer that has a passion for videogames also enjoys diversity in their gaming experiences. For me personally I can play Forza one day and then enjoy Rez the next- I like different styles and new challenges.

The thing is... does the massmarket want variety? Do they want 2D games- and surreal abstract experiences? I hope enough people do and that the market has once again began to appreciate other styles away from realistic 3D, but I only see vague signs of hope at the moment.