Badly treated?

[Leon Retro]

The industry still delivers a lot of AAA games that serious-gamers can enjoy. The PS2 has given us Katamari, Gradius V, DMC1&3, ICO, plus many more. The Xbox has PDO, Outrun2, JSRF, Ninja Gaiden etc.. The Gamecube has SMB1&2, Smash Bros, Metroid Prime, Zelda titles, F-Zero etc..

I have a deep felt worry that the industry will become more and more casual though. The signs have been evident since the PS2 became so popular. A vast majority of games are designed for the casual and non-gamer market these days. These titles are filling the charts and selling millions of copies. Mainstream generic titles have always filled the top10 though, but there is no doubt in my mind that things are worse these days.

The fact is the HardCore(serious) gamer is a minority breed these days. Even in Japan the Otaku culture is far less common than it was in the 90's. The days of the big publishers focusing on the aforementioned types of gamers is long gone!

For me personally.. I do often feel like a lonely man in a new world. This new world is full of the dominant casual gamers with little respect for gaming culture, art and design. They aren't interested in the beauty of great design, or ambitious visuals. This new force in gaming want's generic, unchallenging, cheap thrills.

At the moment there isn't any reason to get too depressed- but as I play Outrun2 on Live with the tiny amount of people that respect and enjoy the game as much as I do- my mind wanders to thoughts of all the gamers playing Burnout3&4 like it's the best game ever made-and this disturbing image gives me a sinking feeling that just won't go away!


The Hardcore heart will never die!

[MikeRox]

At the moment there isn't any reason to get too depressed- but as I play Outrun2 on Live with the tiny amount of people that respect and enjoy the game as much as I do- my mind wanders to thoughts of all the gamers playing Burnout3&4 like it's the best game ever made-and this disturbing image gives me a sinking feeling that just won't go away!

Um... whats the problem with people prefering burnout to outrun? I thought this arguement was dead and buried last year personally for me Burnout 3 IS one of the best racers ever made but I understand that other people disagree and thats fair enough too.

I think one big problem when discussing "casuals" and their love for all things generic is that maybe, just maybe they actually like playing them sorts of games? It's the same in any form of entertainment, I know mainstream gamers who are every bit as dedicated as a "hardcore" gamer is to gaming, they are now seemingly only differentiated by their choice of genre but judging them for their choice of game, is just as bad as the very same thing ppl in this thread have complained about with being generalised by the gaming press etc.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

[Kotatsu Neko]

Um... whats the problem with people prefering burnout to outrun? I thought this arguement was dead and buried last year personally for me Burnout 3 IS one of the best racers ever made but I understand that other people disagree and thats fair enough too.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

This issue is the central theme to this thread - whether mainstream games are now so big that they have squeezed out hardcore/minority/old school/etc games.

Burnout vs OutRun is a common comparison, as Burnout is an incredibly mainsteam/accessible/dumbed down EA game, and OutRun 2 is a niche/old school game. They came out at a similar time, and one vastly out sold the other despite them both being in a similar genre.

We can I think take comfort from the situation with cinema- the multiplexes are filled with generic Buckheimer/etc dross, but good movies are still made. We will still get films like The Machinist, Crash, A History of Violence, Oldboy, etc etc. You just need your crap filter enabled. There will always be a small but significant market for more intelligent and original films, just as there will always be the same for niche games.

[Kongster]

Hey, its the (crappy) games that are catered for the casual gamers that makes us appreciate genuine AAA titles even more

[Leon Retro]

Um... whats the problem with people prefering burnout to outrun? I thought this arguement was dead and buried last year personally for me Burnout 3 IS one of the best racers ever made but I understand that other people disagree and thats fair enough too.

I think one big problem when discussing "casuals" and their love for all things generic is that maybe, just maybe they actually like playing them sorts of games? It's the same in any form of entertainment, I know mainstream gamers who are every bit as dedicated as a "hardcore" gamer is to gaming, they are now seemingly only differentiated by their choice of genre but judging them for their choice of game, is just as bad as the very same thing ppl in this thread have complained about with being generalised by the gaming press etc.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

I am expressing my thoughts and feelings as a serious gamer worried that the things I love about the industry may eventually fade-away.

I enjoyed Burnout 1 and 2- sadly no3 was a departure for the series and in my eyes became a Frankensteins monster of a game. It has little finesse, no soul, and is little more than a mass-market flashy piece of light-weight entertainment!

I am not wrong when I say games like Jet Set Radio-F-ZeroGX-Outrun2-GradiusV etc.. sell poorly- and go unappreciated by the mass-market.

These games are extravagant detailed passionate works that offer beautiful worlds and rewarding gameplay. Unfortunately it seems the majority of these so called ' Hardcore Games ' are seen as non-entities by most gamers.

My concern is simply the fact that if the games I enjoy are only bought by a minority of serious gamers, the publishers will give-up on producing these types of games and move even further towards the casual market.

The only people that appreciate the casual market are the money-men. Magazines try in vain to appease the hardcore- but at the same time blatantly suck-up to the casual market.

I often feel part of a group who's voices go largely unheard in todays gaming world. Unfortunately the worse things get the more we fade, and eventually many of us will either turn to retro like many have, or seek out the small morsals of mercy to be found if one stays strong!

[muse hunter]

many valid points, first i have to say i acknowledge that there has been many bad games, i would be foolish to say otherwise, bad games have always out weighed good games it always has been that way and it always will be. However i must digress, the point i was trying to make is that the more dedicated gamer is ignored, in that i'm not saying there are more bad games now far from it just less games aimed at this type of gamer. When i say "dedicated gamer" i mean those who simply love games i don't believe in terms such as "hardcore gamer" to me there are just two types dedicated and casual, those who love games and those who don't, the educated and the uneducated, make of that how you will.

Again i'm moving off point here, i'm not just pointing the finger at the developers and publishers but also the videogame journalism and retail as a whole, they foolishly believe that if they chase the mainstream they will find a pot of gold. The risks of chasing the mainstream is extremely high, more so than chasing the dedicated gamer, just loook at the many publishers who have failed in this task acclaim being the most noticable. The same goes for retail, cex's fall from grace obviously came hand in hand with their foolish attempt to ignore their core customer who gave them mnay years of loyal custom and chase the mainstream for a chance to get their hands on that aforementioned gold. Videogame magazines, how many come and go all the time? a lot, all of them chasing the mainstream, cvg is another example, best ever selling mag when they aimed at a more dedicated gamer, changed believing that they would sell even more chasing the mainstream, where are they now? Lesson learned for others? i can't see it, has any of them realised that if they bring out a solid mag aimed at the more knowledgable of gamers that it will sell well, its an untapped market, it will be a top selling mag.

So i question those who say that there is more profit and less risk aiming for the mainstream, i say its vice versa. When i comes to games we don't ask for fancy graphics, high production costs, celebrity voiceovers, and licenced brands. If its a good solid game it will sell well, we will buy it, it doesn't even need advertising because we will know it exsists. The same goes for videogame shops. But why won't anyone do this? we are a valid market and deserve recognition, we made the videogame industry what it is today, it isn't too much to ask them to give us a little bit of love back.

[vertigo]

As I said right at the start, there's no shortage of fantastic games out there that are suitable for all of us, so let's stop whining that there are hundreds of boxes of mediocre dross in Game, because there will always be something new and exciting for us to play. More money will eventually, once the industry actually settles to its natural size, fund experimentation just as it has done in cinema, music, etc. Yes, development costs are generally higher, although there are some excellent shareware PC games out there too for a fiver or less, but the amount of income from game sales is proportionally greater too. I'm of the belief that first we've had the protozoic period, in a way, pre-16-bit after a false start due to the greed and lack of foresight of certain parties, then we had the 16-bit era where the Super Famicom in particular became a real landmark, then the PlayStation when it really started to take off, and now the industry's going forwards and still growing. The problem is that the industry's size and wealth is constantly expanding and while it does the same cycles will perpetuate.
I don't think we're due a crash, although in some ways that would be ideal to weed out the dross, but that would only result in an increase in conservatism to please the shareholders. I do think however that given another one or two hardware cycles, the people who came along for the fad will start to lose interest and the industry will begin to shrink or normalise a little and find its way to it's natural size. Then we'll hopefully start to see more diversification and experimentation.
Think about it though, how many games can you really play to any degree in a year?

[PeteBrant]

Lesson learned for others? i can't see it, has any of them realised that if they bring out a solid mag aimed at the more knowledgable of gamers that it will sell well, its an untapped market, it will be a top selling mag.

Edge is outsold by OPSM and OXBM etc by several tens of thousands. In the case of OPSM2, it's about 100,000.

The same goes for games, the mainstream sells several thousand more than niche games.

[spagmasterswift]

Edge is outsold by OPSM and OXBM etc by several tens of thousands. In the case of OPSM2, it's about 100,000.

The same goes for games, the mainstream sells several thousand more than niche games.

Yep, in Retail Newsagent ABC listing, OPSM was number 1 and Edge was number 10. Poor old edge

[muse hunter]

Edge is outsold by OPSM and OXBM etc by several tens of thousands. In the case of OPSM2, it's about 100,000.

The same goes for games, the mainstream sells several thousand more than niche games.

well edge has lost a lot of readers over the years for obvious reasons, it used to sell far more. Sure some mainstream mags sell a lot, of course, but then theres the other side where the majority don't, a mag aimed at the more dedicated gamer will sell enough to get into that top ten, which in itself would make it a success. I am not denying that there is a lot of money to be made out of the mainstream, but the risks are far higher in my opinion, for every GTA success story there are another dozen aimed at the same audience that fail. Wouldn't it be a safer bet if they release a solid game aimed at the dedicated gamer with low production costs? it could sell enough to make the company a profit, small compared to the likes of GTA, but enough to keep them going. Isn't that more sensible then aiming for the sales that GTA had but end up getting burned in the process?

[vertigo]

AFAIK recalling discussions on the old Edge forums even a few years ago Edge's ABC was around the 35,000 mark. That's not a whole lot really considering what some of the trashy screenshot-filled magazines aimed at 5-year-olds are getting in and to be honest Edge really is the only magazine oriented at the market. GamesTM appears on the surface to be aimed at the same market sector, but personally I just can't abide the layout, it makes it all a bit bland to read and the couple of times I have picked it up the articles have failed to interest and engage me when I read them so...
Gary Penn could do with getting lost though coz his toyset/play regurgitations are continuing to grate, but at least he's not as bad as Lupin "My 6 months of free advertising for Squaresoft Tokyo Game Life" Kojima.