The legality of emulators.

[nips]

I'm not talking about ROMs, and of course, do not post any links to illegal items, but I wanted to talk about emulators for a second.

The XBox360 has an XBox emulator becuase they were unable to put the actual hardware in there becuase of problems with the GPU manufacturer afaik... but is there any legal issue with them putting say, a PS2 emulator in there. Do you need the support of the initial manufacturer before you can make an emulator whether, say for example putting an MD in the XB?

Can you patent or copyright hardware? Or is there an issue with the code and stuff, like the BIOS or something? Does the outlaw of mod chips create an issue for emulators? Is it against the law to create or download emus for use on the PC?

[bangaio]

An emulator is fine, it is reverse engineered the same way the original IBM BIOS was reverse engineered by Compaq. However, and this is the biggy - if you can't reverse engineer the BIOS you need a copy of the code and that is illegal under the copywrite designs and patents act (in the uk or the coresponding legislation in whatever jurisdiction but they're all very similar as they copywrite laws are based around a treaty - can't remember the exact one off the top of my head) as the computer code contained in it is an original literary work as defined by the Act which is a protected work.

So Emulator = fine, emulator that uses copied code = illegal.

[bangaio]

Just to add:

This is why you can legally download an emulator but some require a BIOS to work which they clearly do not supply you with.

Hardware can be patented but you aren't recreating the hardware so there is no problem there, at least not yet!

[Ish]

Didn't Nintendo take out a patent on implementation of a GBA in software in order to stop emulation of that? I can't remember the exact details.

[Commander Marklar]

Reverse engineering something typically breaks some level of copyright/license too.

[Pirotic]

I don't see any legal reasons why they couldn't include other emulators in the xbox 360 (or on a disc for sale), especially for the older systems which are well documented and wouldn't require any reverse engineering or bios files.

But look at Microsofts stance at not supporting Divx (mpeg4) on the xbox 360 - they feel that most 'divx' videos are normally pirated or dvd-rips, which is why they went out of their way to NOT support the format. So why would they support an emulator when lets face it, 99.9% of us can't actually turn our games into roms, and in most cases even if we could we shouldn't legally.

[bangaio]

Yeah that't the real view these days. The I play backups etc is cack as no one rips snes roms themselves so anyone with an emulator is 99% cerain to be playing games that have been copied.

Com Marklar, as far as reverse engineering goes, it could be in breach of licence although i don't think you enter into a licence agreement when you buy say a ps2 the same way you do with an EULA with XP and the true concept of reverse engineering is to get a room of people who have never seen a product before, give them the end result you want and then they get to work on making somehing that does the same job to a tee although for BIOS' etc this is pretty much impossible and to reverse engineer a bios you'd have to copy it somewhere along the lines i'd have thought!

I can only think of PS1 and Amiga emus that need a bios, maybe a neogeo although not sure but then it's irrelevant as you'd be playing copied games as stated already!

[Julio III]

I can only think of PS1 and Amiga emus that need a bios, maybe a neogeo although not sure but then it's irrelevant as you'd be playing copied games as stated already!

NeoGeo CD emu required a bios, well the one on Dreamcast does. And with that you can play original games, although the ones I've tried have needed to be ripped and recompiled due to the emu not recognising some discs which have an odd file structure.

[Rebelli0n]

I don't see any legal rea they support an emulator when lets face it, 99.9% of us can't actually turn our games into roms, and in most cases even if we could we shouldn't legally.

Theres no reason why not from a legal stand point. Copyright and patents are civil issues, delt with in civil courts, this applies to emulators, bios' and roms. it's not 'illegal' it's a possible breach of license or someones copyright. Then within that framework you are entitled to make backups, making images of carts you own is well within your rights. It's only when you start trying to sell or distribute them en masse you cross the line.

[Pirotic]

Anybody else remember hearing that rumour about MS being in talks with SEGA to get dreamcast games running on the xbox? Can't remember how it started but i do recall they had a silhouette of Sonic in one of xbox preview videos which helped to flame it (this was after the dreamcast flopped, but before they announced going software only)

I wouldn't put it past them, this is the same company who turned up at Nintendo's doorstep and tried to buy the company back in the Pokemon era

[bangaio]

Theres no reason why not from a legal stand point. Copyright and patents are civil issues, delt with in civil courts, this applies to emulators, bios' and roms. it's not 'illegal' it's a possible breach of license or someones copyright. Then within that framework you are entitled to make backups, making images of carts you own is well within your rights. It's only when you start trying to sell or distribute them en masse you cross the line.

That's actually wrong. First not many people have the means to rip a cart to file so therefore the argument here is that if a snes emulator say was put on a 360 there is no way it could be legally used my most people bar developing new games for it and why would you do that when you could do the game on the 360 (or whatever) in the first place.

Second, although copywrite is dealt with in the civil court that doesn't make it any less illegal. The fact someone decided to play the 'fair use' part is rubbish too as most license agreements do not allow this. Now you don't really enter into an agreement when you purchase a ps2 game but remember you are only really purchasing the write to play the game code contained on the disk once and not do anything else with it. For example I picked up the first game to hand - ROme Total war - yep a pc game that says in its licence agreement that you shall not - make copies of this program or any part thereof etc etc etc. Now...pc games have this as they are played on computers that contain cd burners and HDDs. The license also forbids copying to a Hard Disk as well. I'd guess that Nintendo when they made SNES carts didn't really think prople would create devices to copy the carts to ROM files - how silly. Perhaps console manufacturers should include express license agreements but that;s up to them. The fact is that any copying of a game is breach of copywrite.

Some facts about copywrite that I use as I have to teach it to darling A Level kids are:

Copyright is effective upon creation of the work. You do not have to register copyright in your work before it is protected.

Copyright is personal property. It may be bought, sold or passed on by the owner in a will.

Copyright will last for a period of 70 years after the death of the creator. (in most cases)

The person who created the work owns the copyright, unless the work was completed because of employment. - yep that's games

The work has to be original and recorded in some form e.g. in writing, by a sound recording, on a computer disk, or in a printed form.


Sorry for the rant. Personally I am always in two minds - I think people who play emus should know that they are breaking the law. I do every time I play a game on MAME! I also think emus are great and should be loved. I thin k the games indisutry is so immature (in a not yet developed sense) where there's this huge back catalogue that is there to be tapped and used. Nintendo knows this but charges for it and the non standardised media makes this worse. I could own Super Mario Land 4 times over when the revolution comes out! If I want to watch an old movie I can pop out and buy pretty much any one I want. if I want to buy an old game I can't. This needs to be sorted!

[vertigo]

I reckon emulators should come with a splash screen that displays for 30 seconds (THEN pops up an ok button) that makes it very clear that 99% of the people using them are breaking the law. Kind of a self-regulation thing, if you will.
Oh and doesn't copyright only last 25 years at which point you need to renew, or am I mixing that up with patents?

[bangaio]

Nope 75 years after death for most individuals. Not too hot on patents as it's not part of what I teach but think they may need to be renewed. As a corporation is deemed an individual and most don't die, they copywrite lasts a long time. This is how Microsoft and co are now able to legally copy half the British Library, the works are out of copywrite.

MAME does that sort of screen doesn't it?