finally pass judgement (footy games)

[John Beaulieu]

Why should they be applauded for continuing to create better option menus without improving and evolving the gameplay mechanics to a satifsfactory degree?

The gameplay in fifa 2003 has improved - if you had played it you would know this. its changed drastically from a running game to a more passing orientated game which is similar to how Winning Eleven plays ... its heading in the right direction and just needs a bit of work on the defensive side of things

EA used their substantial funds and financing to procure licenses for team names, players etc To suggest that Konami is farcical for being unable to buy their way into people's homes is tenuous at best.

the last 6 Winning Eleven games have topped the charts in Japan on release - the last 2 PES games have topped the charts in Europe --- now considering that its basically the same game engine in each one with minute changes made makes me think that Konami are now saving money through not designing a brand new game engine each and every time - plus they are using Renderware which is supposedly the cheapest option ........ now take into account the vast sales they have made from these 8 iterations of the franchise and think just how much of this profit they could spend on getting the proper licensing to further enhance the series

How are Konami forgetting their hardcore footy fans? If anything, their continuing to cater to our very tastes by releasing progressively evolved versions of the series where gameplay, graphics and presentation have all been improved and tweaked to such a degree that to even suggest that the FIFA series is a football simulation is laughable. Only recently they went on board to suggest that licensing agreements were being sought with FIFPro and indeed their implementation of Champ Manager stats for more realistic player info should be commended. I haven't read the article you mentioned but if your interpretation of what Redeye said is indeed true then I very much disagree with his sentiments.

Konami are now aiming the franchise at the mainstream market - hence the 9 installments of the franchise on the ps2 alone. they have taken a franchise which was a closely guarded secret for importers/footie fanatics and pushed it in the market place so that its sales equal its critical acclaim. Now when kids go into Game etc they want the new PES game rather than the latest Fifa ..... for the last 2 years PES has outsold Fifa in the UK ---- and considering that Fifa has topped the charts every year since 1997 its quite an achievement by Konami to have done this

So if you agree that the gameplay has improved and continues to do so for the better, your argument that licensing issues are Konami's fault and should therefore be used as an argument against the series in general rings hollow.

so who else is to blame that Konami wouldn't cough up the moolah to get all the best licensing deals?

If I had to choose between gameplay physics and licensing I'd pick the former every time, hence Winning Eleven and not FIFA.

I get both games, Winning Eleven is the ultimate footie franchise at this moment in time --- but it would be even better with official licensing and improved commentary/updated stats etc ........ guess the reason people 'patch' the Winning Eleven series is just for a laugh ... and why someone can charge ?10 for a save featuring upto date names/squads/strips (and have many happy customers whilst doing so)

At no time have i said WE is a bad franchise ... i have said that they should take a leaf out of EA's book in terms of presentation/licensing etc

cheers

camps

[killy]

The gameplay in fifa 2003 has improved - if you had played it you would know this. its changed drastically from a running game to a more passing orientated game which is similar to how Winning Eleven plays ... its heading in the right direction and just needs a bit of work on the defensive side of things

I never said that it hadn't improved, I said it hadn't improved significantly enough from the last incarnation and while the improvements have made it a better game, it still pales in comparison to WE. The attacking play as well as the defensive is much the same from FIFA 98 to FIFA 2003 - put the ball through, find the sweat spot = goal every single time, which makes any defensive postures utterly pointless.

the last 6 Winning Eleven games have topped the charts in Japan on release - the last 2 PES games have topped the charts in Europe --- now considering that its basically the same game engine in each one with minute changes made makes me think that Konami are now saving money through not designing a brand new game engine each and every time - plus they are using Renderware which is supposedly the cheapest option ........ now take into account the vast sales they have made from these 8 iterations of the franchise and think just how much of this profit they could spend on getting the proper licensing to further enhance the series

The success of the series just proves how much the so-called 'hardcore' have really shown the way to the casuals as to the qaulity of the game. The 'minute' changes are from insignificant unlike a certain EA staple, as I have already pointed out, the player and ball physics, motion control, pace and general feel and atmoshpere of the games have improved with each version to an extent where if you were to play Winning Eleven 6 Final Evolution you could point out these differences and it would feel totally diffferent to say the first of the series on the PS2 - WE 5. A brand new engine has been employed from every numerical leap such as from 5 to 6 and if Renderware gets the job done then why settle for anything less? You're last statement there regarding using profits to buy up the licensing is quite a futile argument as the same could be said with FIFA - why don't EA use their bucket loads of cash to actually improve the way the game feels rather than on player shirts having the right logo?

Konami are now aiming the franchise at the mainstream market - hence the 9 installments of the franchise on the ps2 alone. they have taken a franchise which was a closely guarded secret for importers/footie fanatics and pushed it in the market place so that its sales equal its critical acclaim. Now when kids go into Game etc they want the new PES game rather than the latest Fifa ..... for the last 2 years PES has outsold Fifa in the UK ---- and considering that Fifa has topped the charts every year since 1997 its quite an achievement by Konami to have done this

I agree, but maybe these same fans should wake up and see that even PES is not as good as WE. In fact this is the one instance where I would blame KCET, their localisations of the series haven't flattered the Japanese originals, but even so the poor alternative to WE, PES has still been so much better than anything else on European market.

so who else is to blame that Konami wouldn't cough up the moolah to get all the best licensing deals?

EA has had deals which have expiry dates on them - those dates begun when FIFA was just starting out and Winning Eleven was not doing as well in terms of sales, so such deals could not be justified by Konami's suits. ...which leads to present day where EA's exclusive deals will hopefully run out in time for Konami to put substantial bids in for it. It's just a matter of time.

I get both games, Winning Eleven is the ultimate footie franchise at this moment in time --- but it would be even better with official licensing and improved commentary/updated stats etc ........ guess the reason people 'patch' the Winning Eleven series is just for a laugh ... and why someone can charge ?10 for a save featuring upto date names/squads/strips (and have many happy customers whilst doing so)

At no time have i said WE is a bad franchise ... i have said that they should take a leaf out of EA's book in terms of presentation/licensing etc

I prefer Konami's presentation and licensing is largely out of their hands at the moment - plus it's not really something I'm too bothered about because, as you said, the patch takes care of a lot of those niggles - I don't know who you're paying ?10 to but you're getting ripped off .

[ryodi]

I bought FIFA 2003 for GC after hearing some good reviews and finally getting rid of the utterly lamentable ISS2 (I don't have WE6 FE as funds are tight).

It is the first FIFA game I have owned since the original FIFA Soccer on the MD and I was pleasantly suprised. No longer can you run the entire length of the field and score, you get some very tight games and having spent most of the last 5 years on ISS98, a license makes a nice change.

Don't get me wrong, it does have a number of problems:
- stand still. Everyone does it :?
- dozy goalkeepers, but better than ISS2
- annoying 'popular' music
- Ally McCoist
- substitutions can only be made when the ball goes out of play, not during a set piece

but the fun parts have beaten its faults. Ripping down the wing a Riise and a quick flick of the C-stick sending you past a defender, referees who actually seem to know the rules of the game, excellent free kick control and a passing game that can sometimes allow you to do an Arsenal style move to slice the defence in half.

Looks to me like EA are improving and are not quite the big evil everyone makes them out to be.

[Kron]

Now when kids go into Game etc they want the new PES game rather than the latest Fifa ..... for the last 2 years PES has outsold Fifa in the UK ---- and considering that Fifa has topped the charts every year since 1997 its quite an achievement by Konami to have done this

Unfortunately thats note true camps, PES2 outsold Fifa 2003 for the first month only, Sales for Fifa against PES are actually 3:1 in Fifa's favour.

Id also say that Fifa 2003 may be better than the last incarnation but it is still words apart in terms of simulating the game compared to WE6FE, All the gloss and superficial aspects that are seen as necissities in the western market are seen as after thoughts by Japanese Devs as they rightly concentrate on making a game out of the subject matter first.

Ive no doubt Konami will gain all of the licenses and improve authenticity but in my eyes they are doing the correct thing first in optimising the main game then adding icing later, unlike EA who just like icing.