I REALLY hate Microsoft's marketing people

[ObsessiveCompulsive]

They didn't buy out every single half-decent developer, because they wanted to prove that they could start off small, and build it all up. Going in and buying every developer would mean too many games coming out at once, and being complete overkill.

silly comment, from my understanding devs simply said no.

I don't see how Sony are dictating the market.

fact is that they pretty much are, check the sales figures, they dont lie.



EDIT: thought was in the wrong thread. >_<

[daxus]

Last 2 markets Microsoft have attacked with as much vigour as the Console market?

Server OS
Office productivity

Don't hear much of Novell and Lotus anymore do you?

No-one can doubt Microsoft's determination. But with Xbox Microsoft is not trying to sell a product to a company IT director to extend it's Windows powerbase, it is trying to sell a games console to gamers. Quite a different thing. And it is up against some genuine competition.

A console is represented by it's games and on that front Xbox is no better than the PS2 or GC. Sony and Nintendo are formidable opposition. Don't bet on MS winning this one. Money alone won't cut it. If Nintendo do get foisted out of the hardware market they'll jump straight onto the Japanese PS3, I'd bet money on it. And I can not see any way ever that Microsoft could beat that combination...

It's more likely that this industry will consist of warring factions until we all have some box under our TVs that does it all including playing games. And games hardware will have reached a level that it ceases to be the industry driver. And that box will probably be hardware built to an industry standard and manufactured by a range of companies... Maybe a box made by Sony, running a Microsoft OS playing the latest Nintendo game is where we're heading.

[Super Stu]

Don't hear much of Novell and Lotus anymore do you?

And indeed Netscape, mores the pity. Web development for IE is such fun.

Poor argument though, MS have been burnt using the brute force approach far more times than they have hit gold.

Web TV?

[Commander Marklar]

The Internet?

[Firsty]

Cadbury's chocolate is made by Hershey's in the states, so it's rank
Think you're talking about Creme Eggs JR.

Must say I agree about Xbox having damn all games.
I've had mine for a year now, and not bought a single game for it.
My DC and GC get way more spent on themselves than my Xbox.

I remember reading this guy's interviews back when I got my DC.
He used to talk so much ****e, and couldn't stay on topic.
Plus, he just looks like one of them annoying suits that never really plays games.

I bet it was that dick that was responsable for the DC version of Bare Knuckle being canned.

[Brats]

Blimey . Don't we have these same arguments every few weeks? Burai goes off on a rant about XBox Live being a rip off. Everyone disses MS for their failure in Japan. Even the XBox controller gets dragged in again for good measure.

A few comments just to add to the mix....

XBox Live

The argument that XBox Live is a rip off because its just a peer to peer service is a little simplistic. For starters, it isn't just a peer to peer network. There are servers involved in the routing and MS had to buy up a lot of expensive bandwidth to insure a smooth service. This is why XBox Live has a constant fast connection and services like Kazaa can be pitifully slow. You can't compare the two.

Also, you are buying a service which, because we live in a capitalist society, has the price reflects the demand and supply for that service, not the cost of the set up for that service. Freinds Reunited costs ?10 to join. The actual physical cost of this is mere pence, but most members of FR consider the service to be a bargain, because it provides the service they require for what they think is a modest price.

Thirdly, XBox Live cost money to investigate, plan, develop, release and advertise. The cost of XBox Live obviously pays for this initial outlay.

So please, less of the XBox Live offers "nothing" comments. If you don't like the price, then there are alternatives that can be used for free (although often the lag with XBox Connect is often awful, suggesting that maybe there is something worthwhile in Live after all ).

MS Throwing Money down the Toilet

MS have made many mistakes, not least the Japanese launch which any person with a modicum of sense would have seen coming.

But they have had many successes too. The signing of Bungie was inspired, the hardware is strong, the service offered by Live is exceptional and despite the low sales they continue to obtain development of key Japanese developers.

The issue that always comes up is how MS lose so much money on every console. Firstly, even if this is true MS didn't have the large development costs that Sony and Nintendo did that were written off prior to the launches of their prospective consoles.

Secondly, I have serious doubts over the validity of these claims of high losses on the hardware. Point 1, the XBox is largely made up of off the shelf components, which should be cheaper than bespoke components, not more expensive. The price of these off the shelf components should also come down quicker as they are made obsolete quicker by developments for other machines (i.e. PCs).

Which leads me to my second point, the components that make up the XBox should be produced for next to nothing. How much would it cost to buy a 700mhz Pentium 2 PC with a Geforce 2 card? I've seen PCs for ?200 with more powerful components than the XBox, and MS buy these components at a reduced price too.

Thirdly, there are a number of ways to measure the cost per unit of console. Do you include additional costs such as advertising, distribution, retail margins, lost investment income, etc, etc. Do you include development costs? So little is actually disclosed by any of the companiues about unit costs (with good reason!) that any arguments comparing one with another are pure guess work.

For the record, my own guess is that they all cost around the same. I certainly don't subscribe to the wild theory that the XBox costs vastly more than the other two, it just doesn't make economic sense.

And then there is the issue that MS entered the console race not to necessarily make a huge profit, but they did it to stop Sony gaining a monopoly which would put there other core products under pressure.

MS should follow Sonys lead

The biggest thing the PSone had going for it wasn't its club freindly attitude. It wasn't Sony's marketing (which was pretty poor in the early days) nor was it choice of developers (Sega was much more popular than Namco at the time). It's two big selling points were CD-ROM and 3D. Sega whetted the appetite for 3D games in the arcades and Sony had the best home hardware. Everyone loved shiny CDs thinking they would offer amazing new gameplay experiences. Sure CDs had been around before on the PCEngine, MD, 3DO and others, but the PS was the first console that used them as standard and seemed to show it on the screen (even though we all know that CDs make bugger all difference, the publics perception was that Cds actually made the graphics and gameplay better).

Now there is no huge leap in hardware. The only difference between this generation and the last besides more power are online games and built in hardrives, the two things which took a lead in to be fair. But neither are going to woo gamers like 3D and CD-Rom did.

Sony were either brilliant or lucky with their timing depending onw hich side of the fence you stand on. That there isn't any thing like that now is not Microsofts fault. It's a bit like criticising The White Stripes for not being as big and influential as The Beatles. As time moves on, so the oppurtunity for innovation and capturing the publics imagination gets harder and harder.

[Ady]

Yeah, but can you imagine anything bearing the 'Microsoft' logo ever being 'club friendly'?

[Commander Marklar]

No, but the XBox logo? Yea...

[SonicMarmite]

Not minirolls, but they do put out these candy eggs, where the shell is chocolate and the inside is this rich and sweet concoction. Oh my good, it's so good you're sure it can't be legal. Ummm......

.....

Life without minirolls.....how do u manage???

(

U can get minirolls with the mini-egg stuff in em. O_O

[Garibaldi Biscuit]

Stop spamming this thread with....um.....confectionary related chatter!

I am sure such a fascinating conversation could be continued via PM, however.

[scottcr]

Posted as new topic, but forgot about this thread at the time... probably more appropriately placed in here.

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I know.. business is business... but I really do think that this generation has been the dirtiest hardware gen I've experienced in the console space. Perhaps I was too young to "appreciate" the politics when I was glued to my megadrive... however... since MS joined the console race, I've noticed a shift to dirtier marketing.

Perhaps it's the whole Japanese honour thing (forgive my ignorance), however, we never get the impression of Sony and Nintendo openly at each others throats. My impression is that while they are adversaries, they respect each others products and creations. However, with MS being an american company, the gloves are off. There is no honour... who dares wins and you do what you need to do to get to the top. I honestly believe that the Japanese companies are not ready for this onslaught. It's the "shock and awe" of the marketing world.

For example, and I experience this enough in real world office politics... if you tell a lie often enough and convincingly enough, people will start to believe it.

On MSNBC.com.. yeap.. it's MS and the news, the following impartial statement was made in a report.

" But in the nearly two years since the GameCube and Xbox were released, Microsoft has established itself firmly in second place. Through August, according to data from NPDFunworld, a market research service, the GameCube?s U.S. installed base was about 29 percent smaller than that of the Xbox. (MSNBC is a Microsoft - NBC joint venture.) "

Now.. sales figures have been bouncing around all over the place for the last few days, however, what you can't disagree with is that the race between cube and 'box is too close to call globaly. However, MS is seen as the safer vote. As a company, MS have a huge amount of clout. They can ensure better presence in shops, they certainly know marketing better than nintendo and by consistently saying "we're number 2 and next gen we've got Sony in our sights".. people will believe this.

Personally, I'm getting fed up of this. I simply want to play games... I'm not particularly bothered about a home entertainment hub... I'm smart enough to set that kind of thing up myself (using a hacked xbox..)... I'm not bothered about having the same game spread over 3 consoles and reading IGN's rather inane and pointless head to heads... I simply want good quality software, regardless of platform, innovative gaming and fun experiences. I have the feeling that gaming is being used as a spring board for other things, and, as a result, the future is not particularly bright.

Sorry about the rant, just had to get it out....

[bangaio]

Last 2 markets Microsoft have attacked with as much vigour as the Console market?

Server OS
Office productivity

Don't hear much of Novell and Lotus anymore do you?

Where I do (5th bigest bank in the world...US company) we use....Novell and Lotus software



just to make a point.

8)

[bangaio]

Sorry, one more thing....this is the wrong place to discuss xbox live in such a debate (a forum full of gamers who play more than the general public and also know more). In the real world full of general consumers where Microsoft, Sony and co all make the bulk of their money, online gaming means nothing at all. It is seen as awkward, expensive, geeky and just plaing pointless. They unfortunatly backed the wrong horse here. Forget us lot, forget the thousands of yanks screaming at online games at e3, the rest of the world in its vastness doesnt give two hoots about this.

[daxus]

Sorry, one more thing....this is the wrong place to discuss xbox live in such a debate (a forum full of gamers who play more than the general public and also know more). In the real world full of general consumers where Microsoft, Sony and co all make the bulk of their money, online gaming means nothing at all. It is seen as awkward, expensive, geeky and just plaing pointless. They unfortunatly backed the wrong horse here. Forget us lot, forget the thousands of yanks screaming at online games at e3, the rest of the world in its vastness doesnt give two hoots about this.

And even to some of us on here it means nothing. I've been gaming now for 20 years plus, and I have never been as unenthused about a gaming 'step forward' as I am about Xbox Live...

I can see how for some games it can add a new dimension. But for others, it's simply irrelevant. I like to be a star in my own adventure, whether it's as Master Chief, or Link, or Samus, or Mario, or Ratchett etc. etc. Other gamers would add nothing to that experience for me.

If I do play games with other people, say Mario Kart or Halo or Eye Toy, then I want to play against people I know, people I care about beating. And I want to be in an environment where I can enjoy the game with a few drinks and have a laugh etc.

For me, sitting on a sofa on my own with a headset on, listening to some dorky person I couldn't care less about spouting insults is not an evening of fun...

Horses, courses and all that, but I reckon that most of the public is of the same view.

[Che Musashi]

These are the last words I'd ever thought I'd be saying. But can we lay off the Xbox bashing. I don't even own one, but seriously NTSC has like 4 or 5 xbox is teh sux!11! threads.

Look Darth Gates made some rank decisions and the spin machine is out in full force for this holiday season. So lets accept that and go back to playing our cool games on the system's we have.

As a non Xbox owner I admit it has some appealing titles, but not enough to make me make the big leap. I was really jealous about KOTOR, but then Disgaea came out and I forgot about it. Actually Rebel Strike for GC will fill the void better.

Either way its all good. When MS finally bows out we can rag on them!

Great Xbox sucks, people hate it, MS made some bad decisions now lets move on and talk about games again or else this board will turn into gamefaqs.