Gaming Perfection?

[Pikate]

Last night I had an interesting conversation with my housemate about "genres peaking". It started with me saying how I'd completed New Super Mario Bros. Wii and thought it to be a perfect game. He said he couldn't get into NSMBW and THAT genre peaked for him with Super Mario World.

He then said he felt the same about "realism racing games" because since Gran Turismo 4 he hasn't bothered with them (apparently the newer ones are all too sterile and leave him cold). He then backtracked and said he thought FIFA 11 was a peak until he got used to the defense system in FIFA 12 so you never know what's around the corner and that these things always evolve.

I think he might have had a point though... While I can see "lovely perfect" New Super Mario Bros. Wii being improved on by Nintendo, I'm not sure there will ever be a better 3D platform game than Super Mario Galaxy. I realize some will say that's nonsense but I found Super Mario Galaxy 2 to be relatively soulless and Super Mario 3D Land seems to have continued in the same direction so what was special about SMG to me (perhaps just the innovation and purity of an idea) seems lost now? At the same time however I think Pikmin was better than Pikmin 2 but I fully expect Pikmin 3 to be a massive improvement on both so maybe it's all just expectations for the future and looking at certain games with nostalgia?

One genre I do think has peaked for me though is Zelda. Art-style and "atmosphere" are my primary interests in games so even though Skyward Sword is technically far superior than Wind Waker unless they remake the latter on Wii-U in HD with motion control, or return to the toon link-style and sailing for a future Zelda I can say confidently that franchise has peaked for me because Wind Waker is exactly to my taste (i.e. I love cutesiness, cel-shading and nautical themes [Sailor Jerry anyone?]).

What about you guys? Is there a genre you think has peaked or even one you've given up on completely because you just idolize a certain game so much? Or do you believe games get better with ever generation?

Edit: Or do some even think the whole notion of "Genre" is silly in gaming? For example Mario Galaxy isn't all too dissimilar from Uncharted yet Mario Galaxy is essentially an evolution of Donkey Kong Original Edition and Uncharted isn't too far from Zelda or Call of Duty either so do games come in "Generations" and the generations peak? (i.e. Super Mario 3, Final Fantasy VII/Ocarina of Time/Mario 64... I never played or took and interest in PS2/Xbox so don't know there)

[sj33]

Edit: Or do some even think the whole notion of "Genre" is silly in gaming? For example Mario Galaxy isn't all too dissimilar from Uncharted yet Mario Galaxy is essentially an evolution of Donkey Kong Original Edition and Uncharted isn't too far from Zelda or Call of Duty either so do games come in "Generations" and the generations peak? (i.e. Super Mario 3, Final Fantasy VII/Ocarina of Time/Mario 64... I never played or took and interest in PS2/Xbox so don't know there)

Regarding this point specifically, definition by 'genre' acts as a useful shorthand, and there are contexts where such catagorisation has a purpose. However, I think it can be dangerous if it is used as a central focus when creating a video game. As you (in my interpretation) imply, many of the best games are those that aren't afraid to push a 'genre' into an area where it might overlap with other genres. It is important to stay focused when developing a video game - you need to know what you're trying to create (developers, feel free to correct me!), but arbitrary restrictions can lead to cookie-cutter games.

As for series' 'peaking'. I think much of it comes down to personal attachment. I do feel that Super Mario World is the best platform game of all time, and remains the benchmark (and I say this as a person who rates Sonic 3 & Knuckles as a personal favourite game of all time), but I suggest that myself and your friend have a personal attachment to that game (and myself with Sonic 3 & Knuckles). I personally never became as attached to New Super Mario Bros., even if I know it is technically probably a better game. A series' 'peak' is typically just when you personally were most enthralled with a series (exceptions aside).

[Neon Ignition]

Yup, I hated NSMB, for me it was probably one of the Mario series low points but from a 2D sense SMW was probably the peak. It depends, I guess, on how much more can be done with any particular genre too. I have the feeling Nintendo could make a better 2D Mario game than Mario World but (for all the stick they get for rehashing) they never seem to develop a single type of game when it comes to the main series and Mario World was probably the closest they'd done at the time of taking what had gone before and perfecting it. That said, SMG2 gave it a go but fell a tad bit short for me.

Fighting games seem to have peaked. I know there's many who will argue till blue in the face about the nuances of the fight systems and the evolution of particular aspects of the genre but fundamentally it's been wedged still for 20 years now which seems to be the same for realistic racers.

[dataDave]

I thought futuristic racers peaked with F-Zero X, then F-Zero GX came along and blew my tits clean off.

The whole Sega/Nintendo collaboration was golden and they really pulled out a quality production that I doubt could get any better by today's standards, even if they tried simply throwing better graphics at it.

I doubt there is much room left to further perfect my favourites... But I'm all open for surprises.

[Guts]

A series' 'peak' is typically just when you personally were most enthralled with a series (exceptions aside).

Sums up my feelings on the matter.

Nostalgia is also a big factor and the age you first played certain games, games you played as a kid will naturally feel more "magical" and have a special place than games you played as a jaded, cynical adult.

As for "peaks":

JRPGs: Peaked in the 90's with games like Final Fantasy VI, VII, Chrono Trigger and Suikoden, steady decline since then

2D platformers: Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World

RPGs: Peaked in the late 90's/early 2000's with Fallout, Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2, the genre has then pretty much devolved to action games like Fallout 3

Adventure games: Peaked in the LucasArts' Golden Era (Sam & Max, Monkey Island, Grim Fandango etc.)

[rmoxon]

How is fallout 3 any more of an action game than the original two games?

Besides the fact that it's first person it plays virtually the same as the other games in the series while containing more complex dialogue trees and moral decisions which are certainly more RPG-ish than action gamey

Id disagree that RPGs have devolved in general for that matter, they are the same as they always have been if not more complex, Dragon Age is basically Just a modern Baldurs gate for example, and plays much the same.

[Flabio]

It's a lot harder to point at something and say 'That's an RPG' now though. Alpha Protocol sells itself as an RPG, but most people would probably say it isn't, for example.

I don't like to think of any genre as having 'peaked' though. I prefer to say that we have certain games that could be considered the current pinnacle, but I would hope that nothing is so entrenched that it can't be beaten. We're barely 30 years in...

So here's what I think is what stands on top at the moment:

2D Platformer : Super Mario World. Some people will tell you it's Super Mario 3. These people are wrong.
Eastern RPG: FF6 for me has the best combination of strong gameplay and strong story. (Xenogears has a better story but isn't as fun to play, FF12 has the best combat system but a very pedestrian plot etc...)
Western RPG: Skyrim. Bugs and all. Morrowind I love too, but the pacing is so slow in it.
Fighter: SF4. Yeah, controversial I know, but I just don't like 3 very much.
Driving: Not into simulation style games, so I have to say Burnout Paradise for me is the top arcade racer around.
Third person shooter: Uncharted 2. I wanted 3 to be better, but while it has some ace setpieces it just doesn't hang together as well.

[koopatroopa90]

Pikmin 1 is definately better than the second, although as you say in your edit addition what genre does it actually fit in to? I guess it's mainly a real-time stratergy game but it's quite different to something like C&C Red Alert and although I abosolutely love them both I don't go to play them/come from playing them in the same mood, they are different experiences entirely.

I didn't really like NSMB, although I felt the Wii one was better than the DS one, perhaps because the Wii one could be played multiplayer. I love Windwaker, but aside from Seasons on the GBC I've never gotten on with any other Zelda game despite trying quite hard so I wouldn't consider it a peak, just a game I think is awesome.

I kind of agree with your housemate regarding the GT series. I can't comment on Forza/(other realistic racers) as I've not really spent much time with it, but I put countless hours into GT4 and really loved it, much more than GT5 (or 3/1 for that matter which are the others I spent time with). I now tend to prefer what I guess are arcadey racers such as Burnout, Motorstorm and some of the NFS games.

In general I think I tend to put most games into pretty wide genres in my head, so shooting games, racing games, sports games etc. It's only when I think about it that I realise whilst COD and Resistance might both be shooting games, COD is a war game (which could even be narrowed down further to which era!) and Resistance is more of a survival/alien/horror? type game that I don't even know how to classify further. I would argue that it is more likely generations, and even game series peak rather than the entire genre.

[PaTaito]

Hmmmm...i wonder what it means that SNES mario kart is my favourite racer ever, and its not even my most played racer.

Nobody could argue that racers hit their peak in that era either.

As for platformers, i actually think super metroid/sotn was the peak of the genre. Mario world is a pure joy of a game, and the level design/ideas are simply amazing...but with super metroid and then symphony the genre was taken to another level. Although i guess you could argue that symphony was not just a pure platformer.

Super Metroid imo was though.

[w?stling]

Really interesting thread and I agree with you in terms of GT4, Wind Waker and Mario Galaxy. But, hoestly, as a 2D platformer fanatic I can't make out one game that is the peak of that genre. Maybe Donkey Kong Country Returns!

Having completed Halo Anniversary in coop mode on legendary this week I must say that Halo (1) is still the peak of the modern FPS genre. Newer games got better graphics and maybe better level design but gameplay-wise Halo has never been topped imo.

Panzer Dragoon Orta is the final swan song of the railshooter genre. Wild Guns is the ultimate shooting gallery game. For run 'n' gun shooters it's a bit difficult, but I think the genre never got better after Metal Slug 3. At least the series definitely didn't get better after the third one.

I think Final Fantasy IX is the peak of the classic JRPG genre and it was kind of planned that way from Square to mix all classic features and characters of the genre together before testing some new things in FFX. But I'm no expert in RPGs and hoestly FFIX was the only game of that genre I really played, so...

Oh, and Pikmin is definitely the peak of the ... Pikmin genre.

[nakamura]

Gran Turismo 4 is rubbish as a game. The balance is all off, AI is crap and events feel pointless most of the time. It was much better in the earlier games, no 2 perhaps when there were BHP limits and it was harder to overpower the car.

I controls brilliant mind and looks stunning but it feels nothing like a racing game.

[Golgo]

Little King's Story is the peak of the Pikmins, thankyou very much!

[Fader209]

Bayonetta.