Raspberry Pi

[smouty]

You haven't read this thread through have you?

For school usage linux is only used as an OS for the Scratch environment.
Scratch will be able to access the GPIO so could be used for simple robotic projects which older children could progress to with Python.
There is an article regarding this in the free mag "Magpi" issue 2 - http://www.themagpi.com/

[Fader209]

I was under the impression this could be used to run learning programs so would benefit as a cheaper alternative to getting a full PC for a school. Obviously would need to be set up first but even when I was young they were getting us to learn on a PC (we only had the one) as kids respond well to learning in a "game" sort of way. I guess it breaks up the way teaching is done through the day.

[randombs]

You haters will have no choice but to rt 180 and fd 1000 once some clever coder ports Logo to the Pi. Logo made me the man I am today.

[bangaio]

You haven't read this thread through have you?

For school usage linux is only used as an OS for the Scratch environment.
Scratch will be able to access the GPIO so could be used for simple robotic projects which older children could progress to with Python.
There is an article regarding this in the free mag "Magpi" issue 2 - http://www.themagpi.com/

Actually I have, and I have also posted in it, several times - have you? I have been using Scratch for years with years 7 and eight and also through outreach with year 6 pupils, my school was one of the first in the uk to trial it and I have trained other schools' IT staff in the use of scratch. At A Level we use python as our main language - this thing does not do anything that will benefit mainstream education from KS1-5. Yes it is cheap but scratch is slow on it and I can run scratch on any pc in school without having to faff around with setting this up and leaving it for kids to break! The press have hyped this up and jumped on the band wagon (the BBC mostly) but at the end of the day it has limited educational use and is a fun toy for people that like this kind of thing. Having a raspberry pi will not help kids learn to program. It is not a cheap proposition once screen, keyboard, mouse etc. have been factored in, school's technical teams will be very wary of allowing it to connect to their networks (that's a whole can of worms for teachers and another story completely), most schools have a great deal more computing resources that many of us would have experienced at school ourselves.

Finally you can not expect most primary school teachers to start to learn how to program even on a regular PC, even with something like scratch as doing anything complex is challenging and requires experience as well as an understanding of actual programming techniques and a good algorithmic way of thinking - most just won't be able to move on beyond making fun animations in scratch. At a secondary level things are different but then it becomes a discussion of ICT as a subject vs computing which is really a discussion for a teaching forum!

[Brad]

I agree with bangaio mostly. This device does have potential, in secondary schools mostly but it highly reliant on teachers going totally balls deep with the idea of building a robot or similar, self-contained device in order to generate some excitement in kids that are otherwise totally unimpressed with making a computer do stuff on a screen. Otherwise, as bangaio says, it does nothing that a PC can't already do. A PC that is already on the kids desks with a keyboard, mouse a monitor all ready to go. I was previously on-board the hype train I must admit.

[smouty]

Actually I have, and I have also posted in it, several times - have you?

If you had read it you wouldn't need to ask that (I started this post)
I wondered why you said "Putting a limited linux based geek circuit board in the hands of 9 year olds and teachers" as the reason for it using linux has been mentioned a number of times.

When the BBC micro was launched, were teachers then ready for it? I guess not but that became pretty standard in the curriculum.

[bangaio]

If you had read it you wouldn't need to ask that (I started this post)
I wondered why you said "Putting a limited linux based geek circuit board in the hands of 9 year olds and teachers" as the reason for it using linux has been mentioned a number of times.

When the BBC micro was launched, were teachers then ready for it? I guess not but that became pretty standard in the curriculum.

I was mearly answering in the style you had answered me - we could be here all day. Indeed the BBC micro was a massive advance in computing in education - I remember my school's computing suite (2 BBC micros in the lunch/play area in my primary school) and lessons where we huddled around and made logo programs however, that was then. My first computer was a zx81 and I still have my programming book from back then. With it you could make space games that wouldn't look too shabby compared to commercial releases. The BBC and other micros brought something brand new to the table, a fully programmable computer with some great programs aimed at education. Unfortunately for the raspberry pi organisation most schools already have computers like this, and lots of them.

Programming these days is both as simple as it was back in the 80s but is also far more complex. By that I mean using Python, small basic, pascal or any other language you can teach programming to kids. They expect far more these days than that however. This is why scratch is amazing. Kids can be up and running with animation and sounds in 10 minutes. Most can make a just about playable game with help around year 7-8. It is when they ask how to make an iOS app, or a PS3 game that things get complex - because it is and needs a grounding in computer science.

To go beyond that however you need to get back to basics. I apologise if you or anyone else here teaches but getting across a concept like OOP, recursion, data structures and so on requires you to draw on your entire teaching tool kit and a tiny circuit board like this isn't going to help - in fact the best thing for purely teaching this kind of thing is a paper and pencil.

If schools want to try it then that's, we have one on order but it will not replace any of our desktops or laptops in any lessons. I am not linux bashing or jumping in to hate this thing, I have spent a great deal of time looking in to it and speaking to other teachers. As I said the press and especially the BBC are right on this, maybe because of Braben's links parallels are drawn to the BBC micro but there really is no comparison in what was then and what is now. Teachers are always wanting to try out new things and do. Many are getting a raspberry pi to play with but I firmly believe most will never see the classroom except for a quick demo to a computing class to show how cool this little computer is.

[Brad]

This is the problem. Kids like video games. In the 80s you could make your own video game, on your own, that was at least similar to what you played in the arcade or on your Atari 2600 a couple of years previous. Now that's impossible so you need to find something else that kids will think cool but that they can manage to create by themselves. That's a tough thing to do though.

[bangaio]

Indeed, I have seen several "kids" make there own game however all were A level computing students who were all without exception also studying maths and physics. One using processing, 2 using the pygame library for python and one using XNA. What helped them to this (other than my brilliant teaching of course) was being capable programmers and problem solvers, hard workers and most importantly being **** hot at maths. How many self taught teenage programmers do you hear about releasing games like the Darlings for example? Sure there are indie games produced but most of these have fairly big budgets and well taught experienced programmers at their core. I of course may be wrong here but games are the hook for kids but then also provide the biggest leap to actually making one for real.

I remember programming my own text adventure - it was rubbish but you actually bought text adventures and I had made one! It felt good. There are simply no comparisons these days.

[Brad]

Yep. Back in the day you could make a game in a weekend. Finished game. All you needed to have was the enthusiasm and, I guess for want of a better term, a natural ability to understand what programming was. If you made a robot that could move around your living room without bumping into things that might be something kids though was cool and it might inspire them but even then, even if you had a teacher who could actually do that I still doubt you'd inspire as many kids as computers did back in the 80s. They had the advantage of being new back then.

[smouty]

BTW - I wasn't disagreeing with any of your points but I think looking at one of the project goals which is to generate interest in programming, the device is perfect. It has just enough expandability without being overly complex. It will need to be supported from within the education system to succeed.

I am still positive about it and will wait to see what comes out of this period we are in where the geeks are seeing what it can do and can be used for.

[Brad]

It does have potential but the problem is that until teachers are using them to interface with motors, LEDs etc. to try and capture children's imaginations then they are pointless. An rPi is literally just a low powered, somewhat slow computer. It can't do ANYTHING that a desktop PC (that schools already have) can't already do with a few free software downloads. I want this to succeed. We struggle to find software engineers these days and it's getting wors, but I think that garnering teacher enthusiasm is way mroe important than this actual hardware.

[bangaio]

I do know and I think that the swing form ICT to computing is brilliant and I can say that as an ICT and computing teacher but I firmly believe that this is not going to generate an interest in programming. The development of tools is what promotes programming. My recruitment to computing A Level and now GCSE has gone up with every year group that has gone through having used scratch. Microsoft have Kodu and small basic, both of which are brilliant. While I am on Microsoft their visual studio express tools are superb - I remember wanting a C compiler and Borland was around ?100 and VS was always way too much back in the late 90s and now it is free and XNA is game changing. Apple's x code tools, Processing.org, BYOB, and now google's blocks, alice, unity 3d, greenfoot .... I could go on but there have never been so many free, well documented fantastic tools around to learn to program and it is these that need to be pushed. As I said raspberry pi isn't it, it is cool and clever but along with other niche devices like arduino boards it just won't capture young people's imagination. The software tools are what will bring more and more young people into programming.

[speedlolita]

Yay, mine is due to arrive tomorrow.

Shall be giving it a whirl, with something. Not sure yet really.

[dazzling_bubble]

little beauty