Pre-owned cannibalizes industry, says Silicon Knights' Dyack...

[FelixofMars]

Jake pretty sums up my feelings, as an ex-dev (even though I am keeping my hand in) I think that Game etc was responsible in part for the closure of many studios. I really don't see the argument for ?40 is too much for a game if the game is worth it but this is another issue. I am aware it is an awful lot but the hours you get out of a decent game are much greater than say a movie and there are many cases where I spend ?7 to see a movie at the cinema then bought the DVD new say ?13 and then put the DVD on the shelf unwatched and spent ?20. I know this is a bit of an excuse but that was ?20 to see 3hours of a film I watched once.

I would prefer a sliding scale for retail games as I said before where there are different price brackets set depending on things like Quality/Longevity.

In terms of why I do think games are doing badly financially and isn't part of the preowned issue. I would also like to see developers move away from believing they can do it all and looking for more ways to use 3rd party tools or ways to streamline. Too many devs foolishly belive they can still do it all alone and homegrown is best, all I have seen is a confusing mess of either half baked tool chains & pipelines or worse people working around major issues and wasting thousands of man hours.

There does need to be better education, but this also means people inside the industry. The games industry moves in some ways at an alarming rate but in terms of making things better internally its a long slow process. Things are changing both internally and facing the public but again another story.

[ETC]

Pre owned wouldn't have damaged their games looking at the output they put out recently (too human, xmen destiny) no one bought them in the first place (or sure as hell shouldn't their recent games are not fit to be resold unless it's as a novelty ashtray)

[averybluemonkey]

If the film industry can survive, so can gamers. Difference is maybe, just maybe the games business finance model is broken?

The entry cost of a game on release is circa ?40, way higher than any other medium. Consequence, we sell our used games on eBay etc to minimise the cost of buying the next game, thus almost (maybe) proving the cost of the new game is so high we subvent it through the sale of used games. Conclusion, maybe, new games cost too much....?

You can't be serious....

A game lasts WAY longer than a book or movie. You reduce the price you won't significantly increase consumption because for many the limit on number of games purchased is time not cost, particularly for the more casual gamers.

[averybluemonkey]

Whats next outlawing the second hand car market....

Nothing like the same thing. A used video game is an identical experience to a new one, whereas a used car has miles on the clock, it's deteriorated in condition.

[Daragon]

Nothing like the same thing. A used video game is an identical experience to a new one, whereas a used car has miles on the clock, it's deteriorated in condition.

Provided layers of scratches on the disk don't stop it from being read in places or even at all.

You then have to take into consideration the condition of the box and manual. No-one is going to want to buy a game whose case has traces of what looks like arse paint, like a fair few of GAME's cast offs were. Similarly I'm not going to want a manual with pages torn or missing. Cosmetic damage is the same in any industry when you're buying used.

[originalbadboy]

The problem lies in the fact at the mainstream dedicated retailers actively build their business model around used games at the expense of new games, and by implication promote used games over new games. The problem lies in the retailing culture, rather than the consumers. Entire businesses, the likes of Game and Gamestop, structure their business around the promotion of preowned titles over new games. There is quite a difference between a person buying a game on ebay, and someone walking into a Game store where the store clerk tries their hardest to encourage you to buy their preowned games over their new ones (especially during the launch period where most of the sales lie). We have a retailing culture that is set up to downplay new games in favour of the added profit that used games offer for the retailers. Used games are treated as the core part of their business, rather than a complementary part of their business. This kind of cannibalistic, short-sighted retailing is the problem.

The problem is that business model in the long run doesn't work as Game (or rather its unfortunate employees) have found out.

Think about it for a second ... You buy a new game for ?40, you play it death for a few days, and then take it back to the store. They give you ?35 in store credit for the game. So effectivley you paid ?5 for the game. You then repeat the process with your in store credit. So you buy a ?40 game and use your in store credit , so basically paying a fiver for the game, and then play it to death for a few days, take it back to the shop and they gove you ?35 for it ... and so on. All the time this is going on the store isn't really making any money, its a business model (in the currrent economic climate) that cannot work.

The issue is that gamers have been spoilt by the current 'trade-in' terms over the last couple of years. It never used to be like that, I cant remember a time up until a few years ago where people would actively buys games, play them for a few days and then take them back and get 80% of their original price. For all intents and purposes thats a rental scheme, and ironically if Game had set themselves up in that sort of way they might actually not have been in trouble now.

The other argument that games are too expensive is poppycock ... we used to pay ?60 for a game regualry 20 years ago, and that was a lot of money 20 years ago, not to mention the fact that games cost a lot less to make back then compared to now.

The industry needs to evolve to survive as does to retail part too, but I also think thats gamers need to evolve as well.

[Neon Ignition]

There's no big problem with second hand sales, it's crap games that are ruining things for Silicon Knights.

[Family Fry]

That would be great if he was saying second hand sales are ruining my company buts he's not.
As you say ****e games are ruining his company, that is until Eternal Darkness 2 launches on Wii U and all is forgiven.
Also clearly if there was no problem with second hand sales season passes and online codes wouldn't exist, publishers hate second hand sales. They occupy the same space as brand new games that have just launched, most of the times that product is being pushed over the new product.

[Cornflakes]

So why not stop supplying shops who do sell secondhand copies and just focus on front load sellers like supermarket? Easy really, but I think some publishers are just stuck in the old selling model.

[sj33]

Well, the likes of Asda and Tesco do now sell preowned titles too.

I predict a general shift away from brick-and-mortal retailers within the next 5 years or so. People used to believe that dedicated game retailers were essential for the industry, but the success of titles such as Mass Effect 3 in the UK (despite the who largest dedicated gaming chains in the UK not stocking the title) suggests a shift away from these kinds of outlets by the consumer (towards either internet-based retailers, or non-specialist brick-and-mortal retailers). Even if the dedicated gaming retail chains boycott the hardware, the retail market has developed to a point where their support isn't really a necessity anymore, from a publisher and platform holder perspective for the same reason.

[randombs]

It's those lovely, lovely margins, isn't it? These stores have about fifty Wii bundles with plastic tennis racquets and the like to make up for the small margins on new items, whereas if they buy in a game for ?15 and sell it for ?30, that's 100% profit(not counting shelf space, etc).

However we look at it, it's pretty obvious that people are perfectly happy paying ?38 for a used copy of ME3 instead of ?40 for a new one or else the used prices would drop. I'm not saying the great unwashed are ignorant but, if you're in a shop and you're not the type of gamer who wonders whether their buying new helps the dev in terms of sales figures, your only decision will be whether it's worth ?2 more to get a new copy. This is also confounded by the fact they often put the discs in drawers so you're not even getting a sealed copy either way.

I bought Mirror's Edge from cex for ?21 or something and it was ?25 new from Game up the road. I figured the Game copy would be in just as 'lovely' condition as this used one(which turned out to be pretty mint anyway) so went for the ?4 saving. I was pretty upset with myself afterwards because my worrying over condition meant one less sale for EA's spreadsheets.

I think one way stores will pull back a bit on used sales is with some kind of official coersion. No idea how or even if that could work, but I'm thinking something along the lines of the sorts of anti-competition laws that got IE removed from Windows(just the idea, not whether that was good or bad). If the games industry drew up a decent argument, maybe some retail governing body will take a look. This would be limited just to retailers - maybe there could be a limit on the number of used copies they're allowed to stock - and the more I type the more I think it's completely unworkable

In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy with these new online(and sometimes offline) codes that have popped up as a means of extra income from used sales.

Having said all that, I'm wondering whether the retail used games industry is as big a problem as these devs keep making it out to be. Maybe it's true, and maybe they're just being grumpy or taking advantage of the recession. I dunno.

No-one is going to want to buy a game whose case has traces of what looks like arse paint, like a fair few of GAME's cast offs were. Similarly I'm not going to want a manual with pages torn or missing. Cosmetic damage is the same in any industry when you're buying used.

But that's you. Ok, it's not. It's me as well but, just like there will be people who would happily buy a used game with arse paint( that term!) if the price is right, there is clearly a healthy used car market for cars in deteriorated conditions. I suppose the difference is you can restore a car but you can't really restore a game manual.

[Neon Ignition]

It's like the other media sectors, costs continue to spiral but they're stuck in draconian business practices. It's far to easy to try and make someone else change their business practices to increase your intake than change your own. The amount of money the games industry p***es away is ridiculous.

[simsini]

I've often wondered why we were happy to pay ?40 and more for games in the 90s with far less features, yet the new price has not risen over the years and everyone is complaining now!

[fishbowlhead]

There's no big problem with second hand sales, it's crap games that are ruining things for Silicon Knights.

Exactly, soon as i saw the thread i thought, when was the last game they even released, let alone took the market by storm.

[Cornflakes]

Well, the likes of Asda and Tesco do now sell preowned titles too.

Really? When did that happen... nevermind haven't really visited one of those big stores for while, waste of diesel/bus fare.

Personally i think specialised retailers should introduce some kind of pin board, where costumers can put there game up for sell, not actually selling it to the retailer itself, but to the other consumer. The retailers can make some profit by valuating the condition and acting as independent body, who keeps records of the transaction, including details of seller. This way retailers doesn't end up with pile of games from silicon knights and the secondhand price would become less inflated.