PCs and Steam: Thread 01

[Dogg Thang]

Other games are available. Even in your reply to Wakka, you had to say “most artists” rather than “all” because there have been exclusives on iTunes and other places. There have been exclusivity windows, exclusive extras and even whole products only on one service. And as for whether a game is a product or service, that’s neither here nor there. These are stores. You buy things in stores. Let’s call them things if that helps.

And signing up being a core difference? Really? It’s expected in any online store.

[wakka]

I don’t agree re: the distinction between subscription based content and purchased content being all that relevant here. But let’s put it to one side as I think it’s beside the point really.

There are loads of differences between the movie stores. Want 4K? iTunes has the best and biggest library, by far. Looking for releases from smaller labels like Arrow, or many older films which aren’t available in HD in most places? Got to go with Amazon. Want to play your movies on your smart TV or Xbox? Can’t play your iTunes movies on those. Want to use your iPhone? Can’t access your Xbox movie library there.

And that’s before we get into features like being able to download the actual movie file instead of streaming it, how robust and well used the reviewing functionality is, etc.

There are plenty of reasons you might need to use multiple stores, and I don’t buy it that games being split across multiple storefronts is unique. Unfortunately the multiple storefront thing is part and parcel of digital purchasing.

[Digfox]

Other games are available. Even in your reply to Wakka, you had to say “most artists” rather than “all” because there have been exclusives on iTunes and other places. There have been exclusivity windows, exclusive extras and even whole products only on one service. And as for whether a game is a product or service, that’s neither here nor there. These are stores. You buy things in stores. Let’s call them things if that helps.

And signing up being a core difference? Really? It’s expected in any online store.

We certainly can't compare products to services. The hot sauce is a one-off purchase. I don't have to re-download it in 4/5 years time. That's where the Hot Sauce analogy completely falls apart imo. Also as Hot Sauce is available in stores as well as online, the fact remains I can walk into a store to buy it as a 'one-off'. Again the analogy just doesn't work imo for so many reasons.

I don’t agree re: the distinction between subscription based content and purchased content being all that relevant here. But let’s put it to one side as I think it’s beside the point really.

There are loads of differences between the movie stores. Want 4K? iTunes has the best and biggest library, by far. Looking for releases from smaller labels like Arrow, or many older films which aren’t available in HD in most places? Got to go with Amazon. Want to play your movies on your smart TV or Xbox? Can’t play your iTunes movies on those. Want to use your iPhone? Can’t access your Xbox movie library there.

And that’s before we get into features like being able to download the actual movie file instead of streaming it, how robust and well used the reviewing functionality is, etc.

There are plenty of reasons you might need to use multiple stores, and I don’t buy it that games being split across multiple storefronts is unique. Unfortunately the multiple storefront thing is part and parcel of digital purchasing.

There will of course be examples of more locked in media services and TV's and Movies of course have their own unique rights deals and legal realities. But in general if I want to BUY a movie I can do so from ANY service whether it be SD, 4K, Full HD etc.

The example of not using your iTunes or Amazon content on Xbox is another bad example. I can't use my Steam games on Origin but that isn't really the issue here.

[Digfox]

Got to be honest When i first heard about it Epic store I did wonder what all the fuss was as most of the time I just click on the game icon i want to play on the Desktop.

But losing out on features like reviews compulsory for all games,Achievements, cloud saves, forums and the whole security concerns is starting to change my opinions a bit,

I reckon there will be a rise in Third party apps that can sort out the games so can launch all in the one place

The problem with the third-party apps (Playnite is a good open-source one) is that it doesn't take away the need for the different launcher. So all you're really doing is adding another click to opening the correct launcher. Also unless the launcher is running all the time you have to sit there and wait for it to load an login etc.

Ideally games would be sols DRM-free like on GOG or Humble (in some instances) so that you could bypass the launcher altogether but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

[Dogg Thang]

Here’s the simplified version of the analogy, whether online or not: different stores sometimes carry different things. They did before, they do now and they will in the future.

[Digfox]

Here’s the simplified version of the analogy, whether online or not: different stores sometimes carry different things. They did before, they do now and they will in the future.

Still doesn't work though...now just a vague statement.

[wakka]

No, dude, seriously. There are a ton of differences between the movie stores in terms of both library and functionality. It’s the same thing.

[Dogg Thang]

Riiiiiiight. It doesn’t work because it’s vague even though it’s 100% accurate. I think you’re having to stretch here. You haven’t managed to show why the Epic thing warrants such a big reaction when, in reality, this is pretty normal. Okay.

Anyway, for me, I get the Steam features frustration but I’m not sold on just about anything else and the whole thing has felt like an overreaction. If exclusives of any sort are a shock to people at this point, I think there will be many more shocks on the horizon.

[Digfox]

No, dude, seriously. There are a ton of differences between the movie stores in terms of both library and functionality. It’s the same thing.

Riiiiiiight. It doesn’t work because it’s vague even though it’s 100% accurate. I think you’re having to stretch here. You haven’t managed to show why the Epic thing warrants such a big reaction when, in reality, this is pretty normal. Okay.

Anyway, for me, I get the Steam features frustration but I’m not sold on just about anything else and the whole thing has felt like an overreaction. If exclusives of any sort are a shock to people at this point, I think there will be many more shocks on the horizon.

You're both making apples to oranges comparison to suit your argument. For me personally I have my digital purchased movies in one place but maybe I also made a bad analogy.

The reasons given previously (and numerous other examples) in the thread for Marty et al pretty clearly explain why people are angry Epic are paying developers to remove their games from Steam. To me they are reasonably valid arguments.

I've said before in this thread that whilst I'm not as emotional as others (i.e. I'm doing a lot less of gaming on Steam and therefore not as personally affected) I understand the reason why people are upset. It feels like because you can't understand the issue there simply isn't one in your view.

As we move from Videogame products to services, there is clear evidence people do get as invested in platforms the same way they might as hardware. Not everyone seems to understand that transition to services and the impact on us.

[Dogg Thang]

You’re talking to someone who has all his PC game purchases in one place too. I only have Steam. I think I am registered for one other one because I had to for some reason even getting it on Steam (Uplay? Is that a thing?). But me having all my purchases in one place or you having yours in one place doesn’t change the reality that different stores carry different things. You argue semantics on the details but the overarching point is exactly the same and it applies to games stores (digital or otherwise), movies stores and pretty much every kind of store.

Edit: not everyone seems to understand that.

[Digfox]

You’re talking to someone who has all his PC game purchases in one place too. I only have Steam. I think I am registered for one other one because I had to for some reason even getting it on Steam (Uplay? Is that a thing?). But me having all my purchases in one place or you having yours in one place doesn’t change the reality that different stores carry different things. You argue semantics on the details but the overarching point is exactly the same and it applies to games stores (digital or otherwise), movies stores and pretty much every kind of store.

I have tons of the damn things, unfortunately reality of PC gaming over the past 10 or so years. That said this is the first time in the PC space that one developer has paid others to keep games off a specific platform. That is pretty seismic in the PC gaming space. I think we should be able to agree on that. Even if we can't it's clear from the various discussions on ResetEra, Reddit etc. that there are passionate views on either side and the 'Store Wars' have generated significant debate.

I do see the 'it's just another launcher you can still play it on PC still' side of the argument, but I think it misses all the various detail points that have been raised as to why it isn't as simple as that. Signing up and spending money on the EGS is another service, not a product. As I say I can't think of a time I've not been able to buy a popular movie digitally on my service of choice, but maybe it wasn't a great analogy. As we move into a services world, they almost become as significant as platforms you emotionally invest in. In fact the reaction here for some is very similar to when Microsoft money hatted Tomb Raider on Xbox One for 12-months.

[Dogg Thang]

Which is yet another example of how this happens. Look, the reality is whether you like it or not (not sure anyone LIKES it), this is happening and will happen more, I reckon. What will be interesting to see is if Epic can hold onto it once Fortnite dies down. Steam have such an established user base, I can’t see many staying on the Epic store even if they get people there for a few exclusives.

[Digfox]

People have a right to criticise though and sometimes (rarely) that criticism can lead to change. I mean lootboxes have happened and not everyone sees them as bad. Doesn't mean people shouldn't express their views.

I suspect EGS is here to stay. Margins are the big new thing in the industry and the given Metro has just sold 2.5 times what it's predecessor did on Steam, publishers are happy with the sales on EGS (even if they are less than Steam might have been). The way EGS have gone about their business (and may continue too) means there is a chance people will switch to EGS for their games.

But none of that makes the reasons given for why paid for exclusives are bad for consumers any less valid.

[Dogg Thang]

People have a right to criticise though and sometimes (rarely) that criticism can lead to change. I mean lootboxes have happened and not everyone sees them as bad. Doesn't mean people shouldn't express their views.

Totally agree. But on some corners of the internet, I see the equivalent of when people are angry at movies for women existing - just manifesting as noisy internet rage. I have little patience for that. But yes, absolutely. That’s why I wrote that, if it’s a big deal, don’t buy it and, importantly, let them know exactly why. The feedback is important.

Edit: just deleted second part as it risked going around in circles (apologies!)

[Digfox]

Totally agree. But on some corners of the internet, I see the equivalent of when people are angry at movies for women existing - just manifesting as noisy internet rage. I have little patience for that. But yes, absolutely. That’s why I wrote that, if it’s a big deal, don’t buy it and, importantly, let them know exactly why. The feedback is important.

I think I see your point, but I personally would not class the two things as the same. In that someone posting probably ignorant views on 'movies for women' is not the same as people complaining about anti-consumer practices from businesses.