Nintendo WiiU : Thread 05

[Nu-Eclipse]

I mean, do Nintendo and Platinum have a history of constantly putting out games with inadequate controls? That's my point.

Depends on who you ask. I'm guessing that not everybody like you finds past Platinum/Nintendo games to have perfect controls, just as much as they probably don't necessarily share my view.

Fact remains though that mandatory motion control looks to have been shoehorned into Starfox Zero for little more than the sake of it. My point is simply that, given the history of the franchise and its greatest title, mandatory motion control simply didn't have to be the case here. There's more than enough scope for it to have been optional.

[dataDave]

I'm sure there are reasons behind it. Don't you maneuver with the stick and aim with the pad?

One of my concerns is that there is a level of challenge associated with such an input method. Look at something like Sin & Punishment 2, that game requires its unique input method - without it you're severely handicapping yourself. I hope that's the case here, I want to be able to say "Oh yeah, there's no way you'd get through that part the old way!".

[danstan21]

Why can't there be both? Let those who want to play it with Gamepad do so but also cater to those who just want a straightforward control scheme with the Pro Controller?

I just hate that Gamepad-only play is being forced. This is the legacy left by lame peripherals that have no real justification.

To be fair, the game as it is now wouldn't play well with standard controls, because they've likely designed levels with independent aiming / movement in mind. Not saying that's necessarily a good decision, but "optional" motion controls are rarely "best of both worlds" because all it means is a control scheme where your button presses are replaced with waggling. At the very least that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I actually think that if there's any genre that gyro controls might help, it's in rail shooters. It worked for S&P, and I heard good things about them in SF643D (though as the game wasn't designed around them I imagine it added little).

[Nu-Eclipse]

I'm sure there are reasons behind it. Don't you maneuver with the stick and aim with the pad?

One of my concerns is that there is a level of challenge associated with such an input method. Look at something like Sin & Punishment 2, that game requires its unique input method - without it you're severely handicapping yourself. I hope that's the case here, I want to be able to say "Oh yeah, there's no way you'd get through that part the old way!".

I was of the understanding that GamePad was used for both? Could be wrong though.

Fair enough points, but I would argue that (in the context of the Wii's nunchuk and remote control scheme in general) S&P2's control method works in the sense that I never ever looked at S&P2 and ever thought that it wouldn't work, but that's just me.

Hell, I couldn't understand why some people had a problem with the controls in the Super Mario Galaxy games whereas I thought that they were pretty much natural.

[wakka]

I honestly don't think this is a big deal. Motion controls are actually really precise for aiming, so I think this will work well. S&P2 is a great example of how good they can be, as Dave often points out. This will be a long way from the aimless waggle of Wii Sports or Twilight Princess Wii.

Project Zero 5 - which is a pretty bad game all told - makes use of motion controls but offers a right stick only mode. At first I enabled it but actually, there isn't a lot of point. Even with that game's cumbersome and haphazard controls, gamepad motion sensing offers much more precise aiming than on the stick.

And that was a bad implementation - I think Starfox's will be pretty solid. I'm looking forward to the game now, actually. It still looks a bit wobbly but it'll be decent old school fun I think.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Sorry [MENTION=5490]wakka[/MENTION] but as much as I'm sceptical about the controls, I don't think anything about Starfox Zero looks even a bit wobbly now.

[gambit6613]

One thing i would like to know what happened to the possible Gamecube VC? Obviously its not likely coming to Wii U now but i wonder if it will appear on NX? Though if there are charging ?8 or so for SNES game of N3DS god knows what they will cost.

[kryss]

Look at home much Wii games are for the WiiU. About the same I would reckon.

[Asura]

Why can't there be both? Let those who want to play it with Gamepad do so but also cater to those who just want a straightforward control scheme with the Pro Controller?

Because both options are confusing, or something.

In fainess to Nintendo; I'm not happy that the game requires motion controls, but I am at least happy they haven't given people the option if they're dedicated to the motion stuff.

Supporting two wildly different control methods is very difficult; you're almost balancing two totally different games. A good example was the state of single-player FPS titles in the 2000s; console FPS titles and PC FPS titles had very different level design/enemy placement, and different expectations of what the player should be able to do. PC titles usually had a more sandbox-y feel, with a lot of verticality. Players would haveten find themselves in the middle of a battle, shooting enemies above, below and behind themselves. Console titles like Gears of War (not technically FPS, but meh) usually had "fronted" battles where enemies would come from a defined direction, and were more about target prioritisation, weapon selection, reloading and the like.

Anyone who has played Halo CE or Gears of War on PC, or the PS2 version of Half-Life will understand how much friction is created when you take those titles and change their control schemes. Well-made games don't just have a good control scheme; their controls inform every aspect of their design.

Like PC/Mouse vs Joypad, motion controls (particularly gyro/accel based controls like the GamePad) have their own characteristics that can't be easily emulated with a stick. Gyro controls can lack accuracy at speed (and have lag), but are very accurate when aimed carefully.

You could, in theory, make Star Fox Zero support two schemes, but if the game genuinely has been built around motion controls, then that would compromise it. The best thing, design-wise, is to stick with a scheme and get the absolute best out of it. This is one of the reasons why Nintendo are so respected by developers - it's because they understand stuff like this at a corporate level (and don't do what some iPhone games do and support 14 different controller layouts). Some might say that it works for Splatoon, but that's multiplayer and has characteristics that lend itself to varied styles of play.

Now, personally, I don't feel they should've picked motion controls around which to build the game. That to me is a very poor decision, borne out of a desire to "meddle". The problem in this case is it comes after Starfox Command which suffered from a similar problem.

Nintendo presumably want to reach a wider audience, and that's their prerogative - but this has changed me from a day-1 pre-order person to a "wait and see reviews" person. That being said, I'm pretty positive about it provided there isn't some massive oversight that drives a wedge through it.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Personally, I really don't buy this theory that arguably the best first-party in-house software development team in the industry would massively struggle to accommodate those who want motion control and those who don't for Starfox Zero. That just sounds like a massive cop-out in so many ways. If EAD wanted to, they could/would get the balance right to allow it to be optional.

And it isn't like Starfox needs motion controls to begin with, not to the extent that it has been implemented with Zero. If the Wii U didn't have the Gamepad they wouldn't be in the bloody game in the first place!

But whatever. The decision has been made so we'll all just have to wait and see.

[wakka]

Sorry @wakka but as much as I'm sceptical about the controls, I don't think anything about Starfox Zero looks even a bit wobbly now.

Wobbly's an excessively vague word - but it doesn't look top tier to me. Looks decent though.

[Team Andromeda]

to Wii U now but i wonder if it will appear on NX? Though if there are charging ?8 or so for SNES game of N3DS god knows what they will cost.

No doubt you have to buy a 'new' NX to play Cube ports as well . If the current Nintendo model of milking its fans is anything to go buy

[Asura]

And it isn't like Starfox needs motion controls to begin with

You'll get no argument from me about this, but whether or not simple balancing could fix this is going to depend heavily on the content of the game. I will certainly be disappointed if it's something that could've easily been done.

I'm trying to have a bit of faith and hoping that isn't the case. Also that the game isn't crap.

[Nu-Eclipse]

You'll get no argument from me about this, but whether or not simple balancing could fix this is going to depend heavily on the content of the game. I will certainly be disappointed if it's something that could've easily been done.

I'm trying to have a bit of faith and hoping that isn't the case. Also that the game isn't crap.

I hear that. I too am hoping that reviews are favourable enough for me to have the excuse to pick it up.

I'm just a tad bit disappointed that Starfox (of all Nintendo franchises) has to play fall-guy in Nintendo trying to justify the Gamepad - arguably their worst ever peripheral.

[parkinho]

Star Fox looks miles better than it did before; fingers crossed that the game is indeed built around the new control scheme rather than being shoehorned into an existing template. I'm cautiously optimistic that we will get a quality title now as a result of the extra polish brought about by the 6 month delay.