Old School

[JibberX]

Having recently got a copy of the Zelda bonus disk, I was playing Zelda 1, and it hit me, right in the face. Nothing. Absolutely nothing, title screen, then whomp right into the thick of it, so idea where to go or what to do. And it's just goddamn brilliant! All that's going through my head gaming wise right now is what can I do do next in Zelda 1, it's 100% me taking me through the game, no narrative, no monologue. This is how I want games to be.

[charlaph]

I used to get the same thing out of Japanese games. I couldn't understand the instructions or what the characters were telling me, so I had to figure stuff out and use a bit of trial and error. Didn't always make the experience better, but it usually did, and was capable of elevating most average games into something worthwhile. Sonic Adventure was a perfect example, it took me ages to complete and every stage that I passed game me a great feeling of accomplishment, whereas playing the western version was a chore, being led by the hand all the time.

[Kubrick]

I used to get the same thing out of Japanese games. I couldn't understand the instructions or what the characters were telling me, so I had to figure stuff out and use a bit of trial and error. Didn't always make the experience better, but it usually did, and was capable of elevating most average games into something worthwhile. Sonic Adventure was a perfect example, it took me ages to complete and every stage that I passed game me a great feeling of accomplishment, whereas playing the western version was a chore, being led by the hand all the time.

Yeah I can relate to that. Trail and error-ing through the JPN version of Luigi's Mansion also made for a better game IMO.

[Papercut]

I belted out jpn Wind Waker in two or three days last christmas, in similar style

There is something to be said for letting your own enthusaism/curiosity guide you through a game, rather than having the game hold your hand.

[Saurian]

Thats what I used to love most about the old games - I remember playing Mercenary on the C64 when I was a kid: you were dumped on this strange planet with very little explaination/idea as to what you need to do - but when you start to explore and work stuff out for yourself the sence of achievment is amazing. In fact nearly all adventure games were like that if I remember right -

Shame so many games drag you through now

[Ratso]

Ico is a contemporary game that doesn't have an immersion-sapping early tutorial phase, but then the player has a relatively limited set of functions.

I guess I'd rather have Bottles (or whoever) instruct me on all the moves in sequence than keep having to pause and refer to a manual.

[nips]

Urgh, I hate it. I really do.

Maybe it is becuase I'm young and innocent, but not knowing wtf is going on just pisses me off. Give me some kind of objective and an infinite number of ways of getting there is what I want.

Fallout 2 is what does it for me. Get the G.E.C.K. and that is it. Nothing more. The rest you just discover on your own. You can do everything, or do next to nothing.

But not knowing anything about the world you are in or what you are supposed to do is stupid. If you are playing as a character who has lived in a world for 12 years and goes out on a quest, you know that certain areas are bad, and certain ones are safe. If you are on a mission on another planet you'll have had briefings and will have some idea of what to expect. It just isn't believable!

While I can enjoy games that require you to discover everything, and in certain cases no prior knowledge may have been available, eg pikmin, you crash on an unknown planet and you have to be pragmatic and use the environment to help you (ignoring the fact that pikmin tells you exactly how to use the environment).

I prefer an ultimate goal, and freedom within that goal to do as I wish. Just being placed in the middle of the game where a character should have some appreciation of what is happening is just infuriating.

[Che Musashi]

It seems game companies forget that they didn't hold our hand and guide us back in the day. They just let us loose and have at it.

[Sketcz]

Welcome to retro gentlemen, where the aim of the game... is to work out the aim of the game.

Its also like playing a complex game without reading the booklet, and discovering things on your own.

I rememeber when I got SOTN on JPN import, and for the first time, accidently worked out one of the "Street fighter" attack moves, I spent the rest of day testing out and cataloging combinations. Great fun.

Part of the joy in gaming, was as well as escaping from reality by immersing yourself in a fantastical artifical world, was helping to create said world with your imagination. I used to try and invent plots that would match the cinemas in Ninja Gaiden on the famicom, since I didnt understand the text.

In interview I believe miyamoto said he wanted the original Zelda to be like his childhood where he once discovered a cave near his house which he explored, or he stumbled apon a large pond.

While a game that gives you a set task, and then dozens of freeform ways to reach it, (say like Morrowind), its different to for example retro games, where your free to work things out.
I eventually got bored of morrowinds free form world, working out how to reach death mountain. But I never got bored of working out where exactly I should be going in Zelda.

Older games that didn't exactly explain the goals, tended to be "smaller" in structure, and therefor was more comfortable to play around in. Whereas huge freefrom RPG's for example, you know the goal, and the basic play mechanics, but the combinations available can almost be overwhelming.

heck, maybe comparing morrowind to zelda wasnt such a hot idea after all.

I dunno, maybe Im rambling, but I do enjoy retro.

[Ady]

I must say I have NEVER understood the logic of the sentiments being expressed in this thread.

Whilst I appreciate a game that doesn't necessarily hold your hand, I've never understood people who say they prefer the Jap versions of games because they don't understand them. Without offending anyone, I've always considered the Jap-language preference to be a thinly veiled symptom of l33t...

Surely the Japanese experience this so-called 'hand-holding' through playing the game in their own language? Do Japanese players seek out English language versions of games just because they may not understand them? And how can not knowing what's going on make a game better?

Again, with stuff like Mercenary on the C64 (I also remember that game), its refusal to initially give you little to work with made you think. This was a good thing, and entirely different from deliberately playing a game in a foreign languge so you don't know what's going on.

[JibberX]

I think it's more of a deep seated personality thing, some people want to be detectives, like Columbo, barging in room, finding clues with nothing to go on. But then some people are like security guards, happy to sit in a shed then wander around a set path with a torch checking things.

[Ady]

I'm not sure.

Personally, I like games that force you to think, but find the whole concept of deliberately playing a game in a foreign language where the plot and humourous subtleties are also lost completely ridiculous.

To me, it's like watching a foreign film without subtitles and feeling 'clever' if you can work out the plot.

Also, by your analogy, surely all Japanese players are security guard types, given that they actually understand the games in their own language?

[JibberX]

No one is putting Japanese players on a mighty plinth here, the analogy was made that the only way to recapture the Old School feeling was to immerse yourself in a game with a foreign language, and I think that is a great example.

Of course the Japanese understand their games, I don't think that's in dispute.

[Ady]

Understood (though I never even implied anyone was putting Japanese players on a pedestal..). I just wanted someone to explain this mentality, that's all.

My first encounter of it was when N64 magazine marked down the English language version of Starfox 64 because it was in English!

The Jap version was initally reviewed many months earlier but, the reviewer of the English language version complained that the lack of language barrier had a negative effect on the game as there was no thrill of spontaneous discovery and the player could understand what was going on.

To this day, that line of reasoning still fails to make sense. As I alluded to in my other posts, I doubt Japanese reviewers level this 'complaint' at games in their own language so why do western players? And if actually ::gasp:: knowing what to do is such a handicap, surely being able to understand the plot and such makes up for it?

Don't get me wrong though, I have games in Japanese, too but I tend to make sure they're the kind of games where plot is largely irrelevant and where there can be no confusion as to what to do.

I do understand what you're saying, JibberX but the whole mindset still eludes me for the most part.

[djjimbob]

I agree with Ady. What is the point in playing a plot-driven game in a langueage that you cannot read.

Just daft IMHO.

Jimbob