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    #16
    Thats when you tail off into the old skill based games vs. button mashing discussion. One side argues that if there is no technique to be learned, there is no game.

    Comment


      #17
      Que?

      How does understanding a game's fundamentals (ie what to do) equate to lack of skill?

      Comment


        #18
        To Ady:

        To answer your question, I know of, have met, and even had lunch with a Japanese guy, who would seek out US Saturn and DC games, in order to play them in English, for the "English experience" even though his english was not fluent enough to understand. He said he enjoyed the "immersion"
        So, theres one to add to the list.

        Anyway, you miss the point slightly, it all depends to what degree the language is needed. SOTN it was merely window dressing and some item explanations, I lost nothing through language differences, since a quick net check brought up all the items and mosnter explanations. But it was fun to experiment.

        Secondly, I would never intentionally buy a Japanese text heavy game over the western release. Unless there was a long delay, or no release planned at all. Cases in point, Goemon and The Fear on PS2.

        Neither would be released, so I imported both. Goemon was an RPG-lite adventure game, (like the n64 version), and though I would have LOVED an english version, purely to find out what those insane squirell priests kept screaming about, I had to play the JPN version.
        My point is, in such a case, you get a gaming experience, unlike many others, suddenly, the mystical becomes even more mystical.

        An artifical way if you will, of making it more mysterious. A friend imported all the FF games from Japan before they had westrn releases, now I waited patiently, because IN THAT PARTICULAR case, it would have taken away from the enjoyment. It all depends on the type of game.

        SOTN, Goemon and other examples, could be seen, as not better to be played in Japanese, but offering an entirely different type of enjoyable experience, from a different side of gameplaying angle, in a way not normally experienced.

        I once thought to myself, what if a company took the bold step to make a game in such a wierd langauge, no one would understand it, such as Mongolian. Then the whole gaming community could share the joys of discovering wierd and wonderful things within said game, and by being inaxcessible to both JPN and UK players, it would effectively remove the language barrier between our cultures. Ok, I was 14 and naive, but it seemed interesting at the time.

        I dont like the way you pidgeon holed everyone Western Japanese game player.

        The crux of the old school argument, to me at least:
        I think this isnt so much about language and possible barriers, but rather use of the players imagination.
        When i was young, and people said games are better when they push your imagination, I thought they were talking rubbish. Being a young littl'un and still being weened on the Famicom, I had the naive thoughts that the better, more realistic a game was, and the less it allowed for imagination, the better it would be.

        Now, many years later, I find that I am yearning more and more for games that push my imagination, games where in my mind I create some of that world. Sure, I love fully realised gaming worlds like PDS, but equally I enjoy simpler games, where due to lack of technical prowess, you had to fill in the blanks.

        one example:
        While MGS2:SoL may be technically very acomplished, and I can look at and shoot every item I see, where there is no room for my imagination, and apple is indeed and apple, I find I prefer its prequel alot more, MG2:SS on the MSX2 to me is a far better game. Sure, you cant quite tell if thats a stapler, or a PC moniter on the desk, and there graphical issues, and severe realism discrepencies, but there is some serious fun to be had from a minimilist sprite playing field, where no one tells you what to do, and there are no long cut scenes, you just "go".

        Second example:
        I only thought of this at the end of my post, and its a better argument.
        Shmups. They dont, and have never held your hand. They give you give you basic controls, tell you to blow stuff up, and you do.

        Working out combos, patterns, techniques, thats all you. Barely any plot, 2D most of the time, and styles of player unique to each player.
        Id say shmups are a genre where there is no need for language, and by its very nature, the game cannot hold your hand.

        I dunno, maybe ive missed the point agin.... admittedly its still early in the day.

        Comment


          #19
          Working out combos, patterns, techniques, thats all you.
          Blatant

          Thats why I play games! I couldnt give a damn about narration/story/tutorials etc I just want to play with the system given to me. I love games like PN03 and Viewtiful Joe - the system allows you to put so much of yourself into the game - same with shoot em ups I agree.

          Shoot em ups are your mind VS lasers 8)

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Saurian
            Thats why I play games! I couldnt give a damn about narration/story/tutorials etc I just want to play with the system given to me.
            Couldnt agree more.

            I never watch cut scenes, I never read the manual and I never pay attention during tutorials.

            I want to work the system out, and I want to learn to use it.

            Nothing bores me more than being forced to watch some "story driven" cutscene, when I couldnt care less about the story.

            I play games to play not to watch or listen.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by rjpageuk
              Originally posted by Saurian
              Thats why I play games! I couldnt give a damn about narration/story/tutorials etc I just want to play with the system given to me.
              Couldnt agree more.

              I never watch cut scenes, I never read the manual and I never pay attention during tutorials.

              I want to work the system out, and I want to learn to use it.

              Nothing bores me more than being forced to watch some "story driven" cutscene, when I couldnt care less about the story.

              I play games to play not to watch or listen.
              woah, I wouldnt go that far. I personally enjoy sinking my teeth into a good game narrative far more than a book or film. It can reach more dizzying highs, and last longer. Since games are perfectly capable of spanning the gammit of emotions found in films and books, without a doubt.

              To RJ, I know you are not a narrative gameplayer, and I agree, there are times when you really dont want anything cluttering up the actual gameplay, but would you say you're a big book/film fan? Are you someone who enjoys a good narrative in other mediums?

              On another subject, I find it scary how some publishers are putting on pressure for games to come with thick epic storylines.
              Most games design courses dedicate a whole 3rd to game narrative, which is strange, since many dont need it, and it would be out of place in many.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by otaku84
                Anyway, you miss the point slightly, it all depends to what degree the language is needed. SOTN it was merely window dressing and some item explanations, I lost nothing through language differences, since a quick net check brought up all the items and mosnter explanations. But it was fun to experiment.
                Which is why I said:

                Originally posted by Ady
                Don't get me wrong though, I have games in Japanese, too but I tend to make sure they're the kind of games where plot is largely irrelevant and where there can be no confusion as to what to do.
                So, I didn't miss your point after all.

                I enjoy (and actually prefer, tbh) skill-based, twitch type games as that's what I grew up playing. The reliance on plot is something that annoys me about a lot of todays games but this wasn't my point. I'm just saying I can't understand the "Games in Japanese are better than games in English because you don't know what's going on" school of thought.

                I have PN03 in Japanese as well as some other shooters, but as shooters the language barrier is a non-issue as the game's fundamentals are straightforward. But again, insisting that a more text-heavy style of game is better in Japanese is (to my mind) absurd.

                I dont like the way you pidgeon holed everyone Western Japanese game player.
                I didn't.

                The crux of the old school argument, to me at least:
                I think this isnt so much about language and possible barriers, but rather use of the players imagination.
                When i was young, and people said games are better when they push your imagination, I thought they were talking rubbish. Being a young littl'un and still being weened on the Famicom, I had the naive thoughts that the better, more realistic a game was, and the less it allowed for imagination, the better it would be.

                Now, many years later, I find that I am yearning more and more for games that push my imagination, games where in my mind I create some of that world. Sure, I love fully realised gaming worlds like PDS, but equally I enjoy simpler games, where due to lack of technical prowess, you had to fill in the blanks.

                one example:
                While MGS2:SoL may be technically very acomplished, and I can look at and shoot every item I see, where there is no room for my imagination, and apple is indeed and apple, I find I prefer its prequel alot more, MG2:SS on the MSX2 to me is a far better game. Sure, you cant quite tell if thats a stapler, or a PC moniter on the desk, and there graphical issues, and severe realism discrepencies, but there is some serious fun to be had from a minimilist sprite playing field, where no one tells you what to do, and there are no long cut scenes, you just "go".
                None of this has anything to do with playing games in Japanese over English.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by rjpageuk
                  Originally posted by Saurian
                  Thats why I play games! I couldnt give a damn about narration/story/tutorials etc I just want to play with the system given to me.
                  Couldnt agree more.

                  I never watch cut scenes, I never read the manual and I never pay attention during tutorials.

                  I want to work the system out, and I want to learn to use it.

                  Nothing bores me more than being forced to watch some "story driven" cutscene, when I couldnt care less about the story.

                  I play games to play not to watch or listen.
                  Each to their own, but I think there's a time and place for both.

                  Doesn't have to be Either/Or.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by otaku84
                    To RJ, I know you are not a narrative gameplayer, and I agree, there are times when you really dont want anything cluttering up the actual gameplay, but would you say you're a big book/film fan? Are you someone who enjoys a good narrative in other mediums?
                    Its strange really, I hardly read at all, but if I do it is always non-fiction, and usually on some scientific subject.

                    As for films, I am not a major film fan either - I tend to like action films best so again not a strong narrative. But then my favourite ever film is Shawshank Redemption!

                    Originally posted by Ady
                    Each to their own, but I think there's a time and place for both.

                    Doesn't have to be Either/Or.
                    For me there isnt, but I can understand why for some others thats the case.

                    However two of my friends have recently got into FFXI (and indeed KOTOR, which I feel exactly the same way about), and I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to waste their time with it.

                    Basically it is a case of doing something a monkey could do for 100 hours. I like there to be some inherent skill in what I am doing. I dont like just ticking the boxes while I go along in a game, doing exactly what everyone else is doing. I just dont see the point. If I am not stretching myself, testing myself or somehow advancing myself I dont enjoy it.

                    Maybe this is why Mario > Zelda

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Just my 2 cents.

                      Morrowind (as someone else mentioned) Huge world, it starts you out with a character creation, then dumps you in this massive world with only 1 clue. It was good fun to begin with but the sheer size of the world and some of the broken-ish mechanics that showed up later left me bored and I stopped playing it.

                      FF11. More or less the same. Character creation and a huge world, but this one has it's clues embedded everywhere. it doesn't tell you what to do either, but if you want you can go and find out (even ask other players) that's just betetr design as far as i'm concerned

                      Comment


                        #26
                        to ady:
                        clearly I missed the point then, trust me to not go and fully read the previous posts!

                        The imagination thing though has probably to due more with the first post, about the original NES zelda.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Understanding what the hell is happening does not always help, MGS Sons liberty completed JPN no probs. Got substance recently story is amazin, Raiden is annoying, but got stuck even though i have already completed it. I ws waitin for the codec to tell me what to do instead of trying everything like i would when i cud not read any JPN at all.

                          Not saying, not understanding the story is good, but the exploration factor of a game in Japanese makes u try more things imo. By the way great thread JibberX.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I think the reasoning behind N64 reassesing the score of the English version of Starfox had something to do with character dialogue. With the Starfox crew popping up and babbling in Japanese (and us not knowing what the hell they were saying) we tended to insert our own dialogue (usually, vaguely crude and irrevevant) and this somehow added to the enjoyment emmensely. In English they just became all a bit annoying. It's a stupid thing, a bit childish and maybe didn't come across in the review all that well but the same thing has happened on quite a few other games.

                            I might have got Japanese versions in the past because I wanted the different box and manual (and that's a whole other topic ) but to play an RPG or any game where the story or dialogue is that important in a language you don't understand does seem a bit daft. In those cases daft idiots like me have to buy a game twice

                            Having said that I did play through Luigi's Mansion in Japanese and the few bits I found challenging were made stupidly easy in the English one and the same happened with Mario 64. Ok, so it was an unintentional difficulty but it did make the game a bit more fun (and rewarding when I worked out what to do).

                            Wil

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by otaku84
                              Now, many years later, I find that I am yearning more and more for games that push my imagination, games where in my mind I create some of that world. Sure, I love fully realised gaming worlds like PDS, but equally I enjoy simpler games, where due to lack of technical prowess, you had to fill in the blanks.
                              An argument which can be summed up with one example: SM64 vs SMS.


                              SM64 = A mysterious, abstract fairy-tale world. Mario jumps out of the pipe, and that's it - you're on your own. It's vaguely surreal; nothing is explained, it's just there for you to find. Without explanation, everything is a discovery, and every narrative is your own.

                              SMS = A somewhat CITV-esque storyline leads you forwards. The gameworld is infinitely less appealing than the one you mentally constructed around SM64. The abstract is shoehorned into a (decidedly ill-fitting) context. Imagination switches off.

                              All very much IMO... but that's why I can understand how not having/understanding a storyline could improve the experience. That said, I have never bought a Japanese game, so I can't say whether this theory holds up in terms of language barriers.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I love Old School Gaming / driving games as I can pick up the game in 2 minutes and play it for fun

                                Games like Metal Gear Solid, Hitman 2, etc are a pain as it is hard to pick up quickly for me.

                                I haven't got the time to read the manual or desire to learn new control method for each game. I just want to pick up and play.

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