MGS2 the debate

[Che Musashi]

So inspired by the great debate over at Insert Credit I think maybe we should have one of our own. We'll disregard the debate over the quality of the game, whether it was good or not. But let instead focuse on if Kojima was messing with us.

In MGS he had us check the back of the box, change controller ports, read our game saves. Who can forget the tv switching to Video, when you were battling Pyscho Mantis. Then the whole Fox Die virus and Ocelot talking to the president.

Anyway in MGS2 we were Albino transvestites, I'm guessing, plugged into a VR sim. Or maybe Raiden was real and his whole purpose was like Kojima said to make us understand Snake more. Its hard to tell because at the end everything got all obfuscated and Kojima laughed at us for buying the game.

Maybe that was his way of messing with us. Making us buy a game to not like it but then force ourselves to like it, becuase its K0j!m/\. Kind of like Boktai but on a larger scale.

Either way I believe that Raiden was in a VR sim and that old guys that rollerblade are good with explosives. What do you think?

[Sketcz]

EDIT: oh, Kojima messing with us? Sorry, never read properly, disregard what I typed. I wont delete it since it took a long time, but ignore it.

************
I did not like MGS2 storyline, or even the game actually.
Loved all othe games in the series, from MG and snakes revenge, right up to MGS and ghost babel.

MGS2 storyline was uber weak, and potentially even crappier than that, Hideo was going to have a dude with tatoo's and the tatoo's would attack you. But time restraints stopped that. I nearly puked when watching the making of DVD.

Interestingly, 90% of what was in MGS1 and 2, could be found in the 3 previous prequels. (my prediction for MGS3 is that you have different kinds of rations, probably 3, and carrier pidgeons that relay messages, and maybe even the return of the tap code.)

I also didnt like the fact they got some hollywood idiot to do the soundtrack, it sucked. In fact it sucked <insert random anatomy here>
Also, the first had Irish folk song in the ending, where the hell did that go? the song at the end was boring.

The plot, was boring, it never actually went anywhere, and I couldnt get emotionally attatched to the charatcers.
I really didnt care about raiden or otacons sister.

also, having played MG2SS on MSX2, I knew who grey fox was, so his death scene was enough to almost bring me to tears, it was one of the most emotional scenes I knew of in a game. Yet in MGS2, there was none of that.

There was no history, all the charatcers were new, even the Colonal turned out to be fake......

WHOOPS!
this is turning into me ranting.
Im going to shut up now.

Sorry about that, but after the previous waulity that Kojima has shown us with prvious MG games, along with Snatcher and Policenauts, I felt let down by his latest effort.

[Vaipon]

I initially hated the plot of MGS2, but I warmed to it after repeated plays. The main thing I don't like about it is the number of unnecessary twists, where a critical piece of information does a 180 and becomes something else. If you iron all of these out, the story really isn't as difficult to follow as it seems.Of course, there are a couple of totally unexplained elements, like Liquid's consiousness existing in an arm, but overall it ties up fairly well. There is a nice analysis of the ending on this site. I like the approach to this interpretation. MGS2 is a mirror of MGS1's plot really, where data is the replacement for DNA. The need for "filtering" of information is a similar theme to dominant genes "filtering" species through evolution. As usual though, Kojima has a lot of big ideas to get across, and sometimes I wonder if there is a medium that is capable of conveying all of them in such a short space of time.

[Judge]

This subject came up a while ago, and I went off on the following rant:

I think that MGS2's big problem is that it had a large number of worthy themes, which were deserving of exploration. However, these themes cannot be used to make an entirely satisfactory videogame.

Raiden is a wonderful idea- a rookie being manipulated into acting like Snake in order to test personality control methods. But this immediatly raises several problems. Firstly, there can be no slow drip-feeding of plot to the player, as the program will only reveal itself to Raiden once it is completed. This means that the true plot of the game must be dumped onto the player in one over-long cutscene, rather than a series of hints throughout the course of play. Secondly, the game design will innevitably irritate the player. Raiden must be entirely naive as to his situation, requiring extensive tuition from his commander. However, the player does not remotly require this assistance, having already played the Tanker chapter and probably at least one of the previous games as well.

Another difficulty is the multi-layered appraoch taken. Kojima attempts to both continue his "breaking the fourth wall" from the previous game, through Snake's "Infinite ammo" comments and the Bigger And Better (tm) clash between Raiden and Arsenal's fleet of Metal Gears. However, he is already trying to create a contrived reality at this point in the game, through the breakdown of the commander and the "Fission Mailed" screen, and so the player is left confused.

The approach taken to saving the game is another source of frustration. Rose was designed to annoy the player, punishing them for deciding to save the game by forcing them to sit through her prolonged conversations with Raiden. However, the decision to grant a choice in this area appears superfluous- why not simply limit the player's capacity to save, instead of increasing annoyance? Also, the delibrate copying of sections of the previous title may have been mistaken, as previous dissappointing sequels to game will have left the public all too ready to view these matters as showing a lack of imagination, rather than an interesting mystery.

Ironically for a game with better gameplay than its prequel, MGS2 consistantly sacrifices the quality of the player's experiance to the demands of the title's plot and message. The result is interesting, and certainly worth playing, but would probably have been more sucessful as a film or if released as a spin-off (minus the tanker section). Billed as an all-out follow up to the uncomplicated espionage of MGS, the title can only dissappoint its audience.

I think I've softened a bit towards the game since I wrote that, actually. Kojima shows real balls in going for such a large number of imaginative concepts in the ending, and I can't remember any game giving me so much to mull over after I've finished it. That said, the deliberatly artificial nature of the Big Shell scenario is the main cause of the emotional detachment most plays feel duing the latter part of the game. I don't think that Kojima was trying to upset his audience at all- he wouldn't pump a couple of years of his life, and create a product which is so rewarding of deeper analysis, purely on a whim.

[Sketcz]

How many here have played the masterpiece that is Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake on the MSX2, emulator only, since it was never officially translated.

A bit off topic, but for me, I still prefer the older itirations.

It also helps alot with understanding the back story.

I think due to MGS popularity, and since people never got to experience the previous installments, Kojima, instead of wasting his time on the Gamecube port, should make a compilation disc of the first 3 games. Choc full of omake.

[Freddo]

[NINTY]

am i the only one that actually liked this game? i thought it was a master piece. sublime.
sure he was messing with are heads a little. he fooled me. money well spent i'll look forward to the next instalment 8)

[npg]

I loved MGS2. I don't know what the big deal is with the story and why so many hated it but I quite liked all the bizarre twists as opposed to playing through some generic good v's evil plot. Gameplay was as good as MGS1 and playing as Raiden didn't bother me in the slightest. I also relished listening to all the long winded codec conversations with each of the characters which only helped me become immersed into the game even more. I didn't find it pretentious either and this is simply Kojima's way of doing something different and taking a risk which is what I like to see but sadly like Warren Spector's Deus Ex2, doesn't seem to go down to well when you mess with the original formula.

I think the game is hugely underrated.

(I like Deus Ex2 aswell)

[TheForce]

Metal Gear on the PS was an truly excellent game, I loved everybit of it (the codec sections and cutscenes were long but just not getting annoying) Metal Gear 2 started excellent on the tanker, I really loved that part, but the rest of the game...... was a very big let down !
It looked amazing but there was no fun playing the game, in the end I was skipping half of the codec session I had to go through and I was happy when I've finished it. I've never touched it again.
Metal Gear 3 is looking very stunning but it's not a game anymore that I'm looking forward to, I first have to see if it will be any good, and not so annoying as the last game.

[evilmatt]

I really have to go back to this sometime to see what all the fuss is about. I've played through the Tanker section, but the impression it left me (of about 5 minutes gameplay to hours of cutscenes ) sucked away all motivation to play the rest of the game. Over-complicated confusing nonsense plots full of twists are fun One day.......

[JU!]

Completed it in Japanese n currently playing substance in Hard, i think Kojima will always be story led and trying to get a point across in any game he is involved in, Z.O.E and Anubis prime examples, although in the JPN version i did not understand what ws goin on i got the jist, and found it very enjoyable to play.

Now i'm playing Substance the joy is still there although all the pointless chatter can become very annoying. MGS2 i think had a good idea that just seems more complicated than it is with all the twist etc, i will surely disagree with what i have just said once i play Substance through but hey, if it causes debate all the time surley MGS2 can only be good.

[johnjwaters]

The time between switching from third person view into first person view wasted roughly eight hours of my life, for this and what felt like a slighty shabby story and absolutely zero emotional attatchment to characters (except the vampire and the sniper part, that went someway) compared to the first story, I felt it was like, a 7/10 or something.

Maybe I should play it again or something.

I mean when the first PSX MGS came out it was stunning in a lot of ways, where as the sequel doesn't stun as much, and so the impact is lessened imo, quite badly.

[Che Musashi]

I'm torn part of me thinks of it as an arthouse japanese action film. The other part of me thinks Kojima was a victim of his own success. Either way I'm sure the debate he sparked probably was part of what he was shooting for.

[Razz]

It's been said so many times before, and it'll be said once more:

"The game was excellent during the tanker, and extremely uninspiring during Raiden's scenario."

I was so in love with the game in the tanker. The game was so perfect up until you were forced to control Raiden in what had to be piss-poor level design. The shell should die and never come back.

Sadly the tanker part was just the demo and lasted all of 20 minutes.

Can't wait for MGS3 though, looks promising, unlike MGS2 which was hyped to high heaven.

[Che Musashi]

I was wondering does Substance have the theatre casting mode? I remember the japanese version allowed you to do that. That would make Raiden's story bits more tolerable.