BPX029: When M/$ Were Kings

[Colin]

Not a popular opinion, but I still think RFOM is a brilliant game.

[J0e Musashi]

the 360 was like how we, in the UK in the 90s, perceived something like the PC Engine or the NeoGeo

Back, back I say foul beast.

[Colin]

I missed that quote. I don’t see that in the slightest????

EDIT: I get the context now, probably fair.

[Neon Ignition]

That's an interesting take, Supes, and again ties in with the title.
What did they do right/wrong to get them to the top of the console market?
Even if you think PS3 won last time it's debatable, but it's clear that, this gen, Sony is on top.

PS3 had an awful start. It was overpriced and undergamed.
I liked the jostling for consumer share over the years and outdoing each others' service.
What specifically are you thinking of that made the PS3 "stride past the 360 as an experience"?
The Kinect is an interesting one, because I can't fault MS for trying new ways to get people to play. It might not be your thing, but if people are having fun playing Just Dance, that's the point, right?
It worked for the Wii, so I can see why MS wanted a slice of that pie.

I find stories of companies that were GIANT household names that have folded or lost market dominance through bad business decisions fascinating. Toys R Us, Kodak, Blockbuster, Perrier, MySpace, American Apparel, Maplin, Rumbelows, Woolworths, AOL, Motorola, Yahoo, Netscape, Blackberry, Atari, Sega and so on.

I have flashforwards to articles talking about these companies and talking about the time when Microsoft used to make consoles, with that picture of Matrick unveiling the One and it signalling the beginning of the end.

The 360 always benefitted mostly from good will it generated in those early years. RROD should have had a greater negative impact than it did but they built a momentum that led many to own multiple machines to stay within that eco-system, it makes it impressive the XBO reveal was that bad it killed that good will.

The 360's key success was in winning over the US market, it's really where their end result last gen comes from but also why the PS3 eventually managed to outsell them as the company is just incapable of appealing strongly enough outside that central western audience base in the same way Sony does. Initially I'd blame much of that on software, they always had a very US-centric line up and the initial Japan push of games on the XB1 etc were gunning towards a single territory that was never going to give them the time of day no matter what they did.

By comparison the PS3 was, as you say, a complete bungle on launch. But those early kickings really knocked some sense in Sony and the following years saw massive strides in their online structure to the point where there wasn't as much in it as 360-nuts would like to think there was, they doled out functionality onto the system, got the pricing for hardware into a very aggressive position from its earlier ego-centric high, delivered PS+ which was embarrassingly good value even compared to how it exists now and their first party software exploded in quality.

With 360, MS had what they perceived to be a hit and took their foot off the gas as market leaders all too often do. Kinect itself wasn't an issue but more so was how it represented MS's mindset at that point onwards. It became a focus where they could see avenues of relying on a casual gaming audience with cheap gimmick software in the same way Nintendo spectacularly did with the Wii (also to its own undoing). The last few years kept 360 players busy but it was increasingly reliant on the heavy stream of third party software. Easy enough when you have 60-70m sales in the bag but deadly when you wipe the slate clean and expect people to buy new hardware. Whilst Sony was building good will and moving from making the likes of Heavenly Sword and Eye of Judgment to putting out titles like the Uncharted games and Last of Us, MS saw Rare fade to being mostly tech support, 343 opt to go their separate way, Lionhead crumble alongside Fable and Bizarre close its doors taking PGR with it.

I think that's why they're quick to refer to the fourth Xbox has planned to be a 'family' of devices. They'll be keen to get Xbox branded games in as many hands as possible as the core console itself will never be the scale of hit they'd been hoping for ever since the first Xbox was conceptualised. Next gen isn't so much Microsofts to take, as it is Sony's to lose - it more rests on whether Sony's high hubris levels from the PS2 era has come back.

MS certainly make the right sounds now, they've improved their mindset but they're coming off a bum-note and its hard to imagine Sony will make the same scale of mistake MS did with that reveal, the kind of move they'd need to galvanize the scale of audience shift MS really needs.

The X360's greatest legacy is its first three or four years - they're a good roadmap starting point for what MS should look toward with their next system. It needs solid, frequent exclusive ip, it needs to match (not exceed) PS5's power and be aggressively price pointed.

[J0e Musashi]

I missed that quote. I don’t see that in the slightest????

EDIT: I get the context now, probably fair.

It's completely undone by this.

One of them had a big double-page spread on Halo with an image of the Master Chief filling most of one page. I brought this into school and asked my gamer students "who is this character?". They honestly didn't know. They knew he was the Xbox mascot and was "some American thing" but that was it.

When we were students, we knew exactly what the PCE and Neo were all about with Bonk and the Bogards. The 360 cannot be compared to such hardware.

[Asura]

Demon's Souls

Demon's Souls you mean?

Yep, typo. I bought it with my PS3!

Back, back I say foul beast.

I missed that quote. I don’t see that in the slightest????
EDIT: I get the context now, probably fair.

As [MENTION=9865]Colin[/MENTION] says, it's a point that only makes sense in context. To those teenage kids in Japan, the 360 was an expensive import-focused machine with a relatively small number of games considered to be niche, with a fanbase who really liked the platform. In those respects it's like the NeoGeo was to teenage me in the 90s.

[Digfox]

MS should look toward with their next system. It needs solid, frequent exclusive ip, it needs to match (not exceed) PS5's power and be aggressively price pointed.

Going off topic, but of course it can 'exceed' PS5 in specs as long as it doesn't make them more expensive. The PS4 had a massive advantage being the more powerful of the two machines, and whilst a power gap might be less likely this time, I don't personally think it should be understated. I also think the 360 enjoyed the 'power' benefit too with it's stronger GPU.

[QualityChimp]

If MS make the Xbox 2 twice as powerful as the PS5, will developers make games that make full use of that double power?

I doubt it.
[MENTION=5941]Asura[/MENTION], thanks, it was interesting to hear about your experiences of the 360 whilst in Japan.
Kind of why I'm surprised [MENTION=1524]Yakumo[/MENTION] went for a One over a PS4. (Plus no EDF5!).

Best games on the system for me was Ninja Gaiden II and Ninja Blade

Argh, another two gems that aren't backwards compatible on the One!

[Digfox]

If MS make the Xbox 2 twice as powerful as the PS5, will developers make games that make full use of that double power?

No, but my point is that it sometimes get overlooked. It particularly helped with the PS4 and I think many people bought into the PS4 on that basis. Not just because Microsoft mucked up the showing of the One, or backtracked, or Kinect etc.

Therefore even if Xbox Four/Two(?) was only a bit more powerful than PS5, that helps with Microsoft's marketing. If they have the best versions of GTA6, Destiny 4, The Division 3 etc. then that isn't to be understated.

[Neon Ignition]

It helped with the PS4 but more so from the perspective of how the Sony made easy mockery of MS on every front. Being more powerful has rarely been the winning factor for a market leader and you take a look at what MS did with the Xbox One X and whilst its hardware specs are strong its price point is just stupid hence the lack of significant take up and quick cost reductions. It also gave Sony a real insight into the mindset MS are currently in.

You can't rule it out but I'd be staggered and amazed if after PS4 and how that unfolded at the last reveal Sony didn't target £350 and have the system be all it can be at that time for that amount. Given modern console design there's not that much MS can do if they do that short of increase the power by increasing the RRP which would kill them. They might gain sharper textures or a few frames but most buyers don't care enough. The 360's killer advantage was its early launch against Sony, something that disappeared last gen.

Whether Sony releases PS5 in 2020 or not, I can imagine MS will definitely launch XB4 that year anyway. It's the very earliest they can feasibly do so without burning the userbase they already have.

Looking back, it's not that the PS4 was overpowered against the XBO, it was that the XBO was short-sightedly under powered. The XBX really does fix all that, it's just clearly not that many buyers actually care to draw away from Sony meaning MS's problems go well beyond minor console power advantages so they'd be wise to not focus too much on that next-gen.

[Digfox]

[MENTION=345]Superman Falls[/MENTION] - it was more the 'not exceed' comment that didn't make sense. If the next Xbox is more powerful than Sony at the same price that would likely be an advantage. I agree mostly with your other points.

[Neon Ignition]

That's me, I should have made that bit clearer. Like if MS unveil the system and it's the same price but has 2GB more in RAM or something or a little better a processor then that's fine, I just meant it as in they shouldn't make it as powerful as the sun in an effort to outdo Sony and then be forced into unveiling a $600 price tag that undoes it all

[randombs]

If MS did that, Sony should do a PS1 again and have the president walk on stage, shuffle some papers, just say $399 and walk out

Even if there’s a reasonably wide power gap between the two consoles, we live in a wonderful world of dynamic resolutions. I’m hoping next-gen engines are clever in other ways so games make better use of the available power instead of being hobbled by the less powerful platform like in the PS2/Xbox days.

Hopefully the PS4/XBOX releases taught developers to be prepared.

[Cepp]

It was alright, the online infrastructure was miles ahead of Sony. PC games and Japanese games suffered heavily during the first half of that gen and I always associated it with the 360s roaring success which isn't completely fair. The obsession with first/third person shooters and homogenised game design last gen didn't help.

I do love Forza Horizon though, what a breath of fresh air that game was.

[QualityChimp]

BTW - It's hilarious the filter on MS's nickname is still active

I can't help but notice you've edited the thread title to bypass the swear filter, so technically, you've broken forum rules.

Power-crazed mod that I am, I'd give you a temp ban as a warning, but I'd probably just delete myself by mistake or something.

However, I've got my eye on you, you rabble-rouser.