2D shooters, the ultimate test of a gamer?

[Strider]

What makes a good gamer?

In my mind, I see 2D shooters as a real test of skill. You need to have a great memory, amazing reflexes and most be constantly on the ball. to me, there's nothing more satisfying than when a huge end of level boss is pumping put a million and one bullets and some skillful negotiation enables you to pass through unscathed.

Of course, you're all bound to have your own opinions, but I really think 2D shooters really seperate the men from the boys (although, on a more important note, it's the only genre I'm actually any good at).

[Crispin]

Yeah, but theoretically, you could make a little ROB style machine/program, that just completed Ikaruga, simply by telling it to follow a predetermined path that never changes.

Course, getting it to produce the highest theoretical max score would be very difficult, simply because Ikaruga has a very simple scoring system that coupled with dozens of enemies, and a few brief spots of emergent gameplay (e.g. circling ships that spawn children near the start Ch 2 -2 spring to mind) would make it a nightmare to program.

The maths would be incredibly complicated.

A computer could beat a shooter. Getting it to produce the highest score would be impossible, save by copying a human, in which case it would be joint top.

[rjpageuk]

Getting good at a 2d shooter is just all about practice and dedication.

I dont really think a lot of skill is involved to be honest.

And this comment comes literally 5 minutes after I achieved a 234 chain in chapter 4 for the first ever time in Ikaruga, wohooo

[Strider]

Oh well, that blows my theory out of the water then.

[taurusnipple]

What makes a good gamer though, IMO strider, is versatility. Anyway are you out to become the topic creating king of general gaming or something?

[Crispin]

Well, it's what you think that matters. As long as you feel cool, when the bullets are whizzing, and you're doing stuff you never thought possible, and you're dodging, weaving, moving gracefully, pushing yourself, realising the trapped potential within you and forever stretches out until you can just reach out and touch it with your hands. Reach out and touch it with the tips of your fingers. But it slips away, but for one brief moment, you're there, riding the wave, a perfect moment, the thing humans have tried to obtain for millenia. When you're not just some person, but THE person, the end result of millenia of evolution...

Well, that is why I play 2D shooters.
Maybe it is an illusion, this feeling of what is so crudely called "euphoria" but if it is, it's a fine illusion.

[Strider]

What makes a good gamer though, IMO strider, is versatility. Anyway are you out to become the topic creating king of general gaming or something?

What can I say, I'm on holiday and I just need to type

With regards to Crispin's comments, you've hit the nail exactly on the head. Being good at 2D shooters makes me feel special (something that doesn't happen very often )

[MarkyB]

What makes a good gamer though, IMO strider, is versatility. Anyway are you out to become the topic creating king of general gaming or something?

I'd agree

not to blow my own horn,

but i can normally pick up any game and do reasonably well as soon as i start it....

Shooters i'm pretty good at, psyvariar, ikaruga, shikigami no shiro (now that i actually have it expect some scores very soon ^_^)
as well as beat em ups, and yawn... puzzle games, which i find fun.

I think its still all about having fun, playing games regardless of whether your good or not, for example, i will always play beat em ups if someone wants to play with me, whether i can play it or not, even if they are masterful... you can learn plenty, even when losing fast

[Jaxon]

Getting good at a 2d shooter is just all about practice and dedication.

I dont really think a lot of skill is involved to be honest.

And this comment comes literally 5 minutes after I achieved a 234 chain in chapter 4 for the first ever time in Ikaruga, wohooo

HAHAHA

How can you separate the two when skill and talent in everything in this world, not just videogames, is a direct result of practice and dedication.

If you're that good at Ikaruga, you can truthfully say you're very skilled at the game.

[superkully]

Yeah, but theoretically, you could make a little ROB style machine/program, that just completed Ikaruga, simply by telling it to follow a predetermined path that never changes.

Course, getting it to produce the highest theoretical max score would be very difficult, simply because Ikaruga has a very simple scoring system that coupled with dozens of enemies, and a few brief spots of emergent gameplay (e.g. circling ships that spawn children near the start Ch 2 -2 spring to mind) would make it a nightmare to program.

The maths would be incredibly complicated.

A computer could beat a shooter. Getting it to produce the highest score would be impossible, save by copying a human, in which case it would be joint top.

That doesn't make sense... A computer playing Ikaruga would be amazing (and for anyone doing an AI/CS degree would make for an interesting final-year project).

Firstly link up the playing programme directly to the APIs of the game so you've got your inputs of where everything is on the screen and outputs of ship movement, fire and colour switching

Now, programme reflexive behaviour to the effect:

+ Avoid Enemy ships and their fire
+ Shoot all of one colour first and other max points rules.

Now get the playing_programme playing the game and storing past played games with information such as which enemies come when, when overfire was used and how many points were gained.

Now it is simply a matter of choosing a search methodology such as evol. comp.

The computer is 'thinking' super fast, so will have no problem dodging fire and shooting enemies, you'll have to slap in a few heuristics (this is where this falls down a little) to tell it what the best approachs for various attack patterns are (or it might miss some enemies) and we've got a computer playing Ikaruga much better than any human ever could.

[Pij]

imo shmups is about as pure gaming experience as you can get. Nothing more rewarding than a 1CC or to beat you max chain.

i 1CC'ed esp.ra.de the other day, not a huge feat for some but i was happy as hell

ive given up buying alot of other genres as they sit on the shelf while i play guwange or some other shmups (no ikaruga though thank you )

[rjpageuk]

How can you separate the two when skill and talent in everything in this world, not just videogames, is a direct result of practice and dedication.

Thats actually a good point.

I quickly went and looked up "skill" at dictionary.com and got a completely different definition to that which I expected.

Skill is indeed something which is just acquired through practice and dedication, and thus you are right.

I was confusng the terms "skill" and "talent".

And what Crispin said (in this second post). That perfectly explains why I spend hours on end playing shmups.

EDIT: As for making a computer play Ikaruga better than any human, of course this is possible. But then IBM proved with their chess player that thats probably true of just about every passive sport and probably every video game too.

[Ady]

Soory Strider, but your theory is too ad hoc, imo. It's a bit like saying one isn't a 'proper' musician if they can't pull of Satriani-esque guitar wank.

As before, skill at any game is a direct result of practice. Essentially, anyone could do it if they had the dedication. To single out mastery of one genre at the expense of others is very one-sided.

If one is great at shooters but sucks balls at fighters, how can they be called a good, all-round gamer?

If a gamer tends to fare better with certain genres, then it could be said they have some talent with regard to those genres but owning any game is just a matter of skill,a nd skill a matter of practice...

[Strider]

Sorry everyone, due to the lateness of my post the thyread is straying off topic. I never meant to imply that being good at 2D shoot-em-ups made you the all round gamer.

I just meant that I felt it's a very testing genre to perfect. A friend and myself have been playing Shikigami for the same amount of time and he's rubbish at it, while I'm slowly now approaching 2 billion on 1 credit. I suppose what I'm really trying to say is that I love 2D shooters more than any other genre because the really test me when playing games, (unlike say SPlinter Cell which tests nothing more than my patiance).

For the time being, I'll be sticking with Ady's last comment, I need to know I have some sort of skill at playing videogames

[Sketcz]

Id say 2D games in general are a good test of a gamers abilities.

Bomberman and countless excellent 2D beat-em-ups spring to mind.

Puzzle games too, for those with a thinking knack. Been playing alot of Warios Woods multiplayer recently, very hectic, you need to think, and be fast, and its got just a touch of bomberman in there, just a touch. Against skilled opponents, a great way to be in the zone, time absolutely flies.


Anyway, apart from perhaps sould calibur, I cant think of many 3D based games that people hold aloft as a way of testing a gamers skills.

2D games are a refined set of genres, with history and improvement behind them.
Coupled with the fact that everything is visually available to you from the start, you are given all the info you need to achieve your goal in the fastest most effective way possible.
In a split second you have everything you need, and you just go.


Versatility at all of these genres, like someone above said, is the test of a good gamer. Can you go consecutively go through all the above genres, and be consistently good at them all in a short space of time?


Ive tried it, and I find it difficult to jump into another style of play so soon after intensely playing a different one.