Journalism: Running scared of the fanboys

[Saurian]

You aint feeling me man -

I cant explain it any better (I'm totally useless at explaining stuff >_&lt - have a look at the scene out there and see what I mean. It's a totally different world.

[rjpageuk]

I think I know what you are talking about Saur.

I think in this discussion people arent really talking about the same groups of people.

Looking at software sales maybe it is clear that the average Japanese gamer likes their games easier than their Western counterparts.

But then somone is equally justified in saying that all western gamers liked were identikit sequels and sports games (look at the charts here or in the states).

I dont think this is representative at all of what most people here (meaning this board) like, and in the same way saying Japanese gamers only like easy games isnt representative of the equivalent group of Japanese people - there is clearly a massive group of Japanese gamers who excel at pushing themselves at difficult games.

[BungiePeterRare&Odd]

Yes there are more casual gamers in Japan, it's more of a casual event there watching football on Sundays is here. There are plenty of hardcore gamers there as well, probably even more but they prefer different types of games, even the games of the same genre are different there, such as RPG's.

[Brats]

I think we're all coming from the same point of view more or less.

What I am saying is that, Yes, there is a large group of Japanese hardcore gamers who live and breath arcades. However, large as this group may be, to my knowledge they are still a minority compared to the vast numbers who eagerly await the next Dragon Quest.

Which is exactly the same situation in the West. There are a large group of people who reguarly participate in clan games and tournaments, but compared to the masses who eagerly await the next GTA, they are again in the minority.

I don't think either has a majority of hardcore gamers. However it's possible that leaving the hardcore contingent to one side for a moment, out of the silent majority who make up the casual side tastes in the West err slightly towards more difficult games.

[BungiePeterRare&Odd]

Saurian, it's not you it's me. I'm tired, I'll reread your post after I get some sleep

[rjpageuk]

I think thats a fair post Brats.

Out of interest, and sorry to derail this topic further (although it is slightly on topic), what was the explanation for the lack of a western release of the hardened up sequel to Super Mario Brothers?

[Brats]

That's a good point. IIRC it was something like NOA believing that the Americans wouldn't take so kindly to such a similar game to Mario Bros 1. In the US at the time, Mario was more closely associated with the NES than he was with the Famicon, largely because of the larger software library in Japan.

So they changed Doki Doki panic around a bit to make it feel like the US gamers were getting a new game. I don't think the difficulty was actually a factor.

[Tig]

...more credible sites like ign and gamespot both give them high remarks i a believe them more then gaming age

That's cheered me up, that.

[Cacophanus]

I didn't think the majority of Japanese gamers were into skill based games? Sure, there is a fairly healthy hardcore contingent who would be teeh-a-gnashing at comments that they are sissy's, but don't the majority of Japanese like experience based games (much like the West)?

Not excusing Itagaki's comments of course. It seems unlikely that there are fewer skill based gamers in the East than there are in the West, although the West has it's fair share of skill based gamers, just in different genres (FPS as opposed to Fighters for example).

I can confirm that from first hand experience and pretty thorough Japanese market research that Itagaki is talking smack. Gaming in Japan is ubiquitous and the majority of its consituents view gaming in the same way we would deem the "hardcore" contigent do so in Britain. In that they are determined, thorough and totally obsessive about their pastime (incredibly competitive too). Moreover, this ranges across all ages and genders, and is often put on public display (as in prime time TV shows and on the radio). So to have a games developer spout nonsense that Japanese gamers "don't like dying" and want "easier games" runs counter to the evidence (be aware that this is also a political stance on the behalf of a few Japanese games companies at present, they want gaming to develop the way they want rather than how the public is currently demanding).

EDGE is also jumping on the "easier games" bandwagon so as to empower themselves in the face of their truly n00b gaming skills (true story).

There is a huge social gaming scene in the West. It just happens to be online and at specialist meets rather that at the arcades.

I would agree with this, but I know the statistics (proportionally) indicate otherwise. I do think online gaming is a force for good however.

[Matt Hughes]

Coming back to the fanboy issue here,

I agree with Pete. If you want further proof how bad the fanboy problem gets, just tap in an unreleased game into Amazon and see how many people who haven't even played the game are willing to give it 5/5 stars.

IGN and Gamespot always, always give big releases high scores because it is what the console's fans want to hear. How refreshing would have it been, on release, for one of the two to give Wind Waker an 8 whilst mentioning that the second half of the game tails off horribly into a boring treasure hunt? It never happens that way. It's left to the smaller sites to do it, and when they do they are slammed for going against the grain.

[Brats]

Gaming in Japan is ubiquitous and the majority of its consituents view gaming in the same way we would deem the "hardcore" contigent do so in Britain.

Is that not slightly at odds with something you've written before:

....most japanese people regard arcades with the same amount of contempt that the British do. In a country where people actually play Virtual On Force and gleefully welcome challengers in a friendly manner, most people still feel ashamed to like playing games, either at home or in public.

Notwithstanding that, is it not strange that by far the most popular games in Japan are RPGs that present scant challenge? Also, is there not a good deal of games that either have the challenge improved for the Western release or are rereleased in their home territory with easier modes of play (Viewtiful Joe Revival for example).

[Cacophanus]

Well, from a social standpoint most Japanese are aware of a stigma attached to gaming (as well as anime and manga). This hasn't stopped the majority of Japanese from following their respective passions, the difference being is that in Japan it is slyly hidden. Whilst gaming has a huge following, it is deemed as something that "lacks Japanese authenticity". There is a huge level of snobbery and prestige attached to undertaking "pure" Japanese pastimes, so attributing cultural allegory to our "geek gamer" stigma simply doesn't wash. Admittedly, this is entirely my fault for not explaining this more clearly in my original spiel but I can assure you that it is an accurate description of the current state of affairs surrounding gaming in Japan. Naturally, my accusation that the EDGE staffers are clearly gaming wusses also still holds.

...and quit with the Shevek association, it aint appreciated

[Brats]

I couldn't really care less about Edge being alledged gaming wusses....

Those two statements contradict each other quite stupendously, but I'll take your word that the earlier statement did not come out as intended.

However, the argument that the majority of Japanese "consituents view gaming in the same way we would deem the "hardcore" contigent do so in Britain" still doesn't wash. Given that Japan has a population of, what, around 130 million and sales of the next generation consoles are somewhere around the 15 million mark.

If your statement is true, that's a huge number of passionate gamers who don't own a machine from the current generation, which seems somewhat odd.

[baad bwoy]

I dont know why some videogames players feel the need to justify their interest through proclaiming themselves as 'Hardcore' players, whilst the rest of us are relegated to the level of 'Fanboy' status if we express a liking for a particular title which lyes contrary to the Hardcores opinion about what is and isnt a good game.
I am looking forward to Ninja Gaiden immensely and am planning to buy a new xbox just to play this game, I read the review of this title on Gaming Age and whilst I did not enjoy reading what the reviewer said about this title, as his/her point of view was in conflict to the hopes I hold for this game. I'm looking forward to mashing up countless Ninja with me nunchuks,
But putting aside my fanboy tendencies for just a moment and in analysing the text this reviewer is clearly showing quite some level of incongruence between the final opinion expressed and the text in which he/she expresses said opinion, for example,

"Ninja Gaiden is just not the Ninja Gaiden I expected. It's overwhelmingly mediocre, not enjoyable to play, and the horrendous camera alone destroys any redeeming factors the game may have"

If this is the case then why the closing statement,

"Eds Note: While we do not usually need to justify a review score (C- is "good or average" on our scale) or a writer's personal opinion,"

the review does not describe a game which is either "good or average"
but, "overwhelmingly mediocre, not enjoyable to play,"

So while I can personally accept anothers opinion if they are able to justify it, and would hope to hear an objective viewpoint when it comes to my games playing purchases, (as for one thing it would save my money from being wasted) if the reviewer is clearly confused I will not trust their opinion.

On the other topic which is seemingly contained in this thread that of whether Western ot Eastern games players are the most 'Hardcore'
what a bunch of crap, who cares

sorry about the rant

[John Beaulieu]

oh dear - once again a thread drifts into off-topic territory, and once again the differences between 'hardcore' gamers in the West and Japan rears its ugly head.

lets get one thing straight, a look at the latest software charts in Japan goes to show that Japan is home to the mainstream franchise and the proof as they say is in the pudding (courtesy of GameScience)

1 PS2 Onimusha 3 Capcom 359,160 359,160 64.1%
2 PS2 Sengoku Musou Koei 79,909 884,649 92.2%
3 PS2 Winning Eleven 7 International Konami 71,330 376,468 91.2%
4 GBA Pokemon Fire Red & Leaf Green Pokemon 66,316 1,562,455 91.2%
5 PS2 Kaido Battle 2: Chain Reaction Genki 53,192 53,192 65.7%
6 PS2 SD Gundam G Generation Seed Bandai 42,226 326,987 86.9%
7 PS2 Final Fantasy X-2 International + Last Mission Square-Enix 28,522 200,011 69.1%
8 GBA Famicom Mini 01: Super Mario Brothers Nintendo 23,992 140,456 91.5%
9 GBA Famicom Mini 03: Ice Climber Nintendo 18,648 60,307 67.3%
10 PS2 Gallop Racer Lucky 7 Tecmo 16,720 49,248 68.4%

Onimusha 3 selling 359,000+ copies in a week - mainstream here we come, and just how many sequels/franchises are in that list?

Japanese 'dedicated' gamers are no different than those in the west - in fact i would go so far as to say that the western equivalent is more dedicated due to the added problem of importing the 'rarer' games .... i wonder just how many Japanese gamers would be buying consoles on the date of release if they launched in the west first, unlike their western counterparts who are forced to import......

is the gaming scene that different in East or West? personally i think not - the mainstream games sell in both territories and the more niche games sell to the more dedicated (some of which have learned a foreign language so to play said games ... just how dedicated can you get?)

and please don't try to turn this into (yet another) ill-disguised attack on Edge