RPGs and levelling up

[marcus]

After finding Xenosaga hard going at the start, Im now in the enviable position of having a set of 3 characters so levelled up that they are all but untouchable now. I can beat all enemies with the same combination of moves, over and over again, in fact there isnt any real need for me to watch the battles anymore as its always a foregone conclusion that I will win. Ive no need to use any of the special items and attacks I have worked hard to find, nor does the battles require any real thought. Bosses come and go, again no match for my supreme warriors.

This is a common factor with most RPGs Ive played, I guess I perhaps level up too much maybe, or at least more than I should, but I sometimes wonder if developers could make a little effort in countering people who play the game like I do so that perhaps more challenge and variety could take place. I dont see it as a flaw, just a part of the restrictiveness of games in the RPG genre in that whilst most of the game is build around character development, its the same character development that can ultimatly turn a once interesting game into a complete pushover. Any thoughts?

[Ish]

I think its a really difficult balance to hit. Make it necessary to level up too much and people (like me) who get frustrated by the constant battles (particularly if they're random grrrrr) get annoyed and give up. Head the other way and make levelling up less necessary then people who are more experienced in the ways of the RPG or enjoy the battles more end up in the position your in.

Having said that though I would have thought that given that the majority of RPGs have linear stories and a very linear route of progression through them you would have thought it would be possible to scale the strength of the enemies proportionally to the level of the players characters and how far they are through the game.

[Robin]

I've always thought that stats should be hidden from the user. Make the stats visible in visual clues - size of someone's muscles might indicate strength, resplendence of someone's staff (oo-er) their magic ability. This would remove the incentive to just get one more level and would provide some degree of character development. If you were being clever you could have enemies respond to these visual clues - they might not try to attack someone with big muscles but go and get reinforcements. This would mean that each fight would still be a challenge.

[Seedy Gord]

To tell the truth, I think FF7 did manage this to some degree. Last time I played it, I had my characters on about Lv 65-70 and I still cant beat Ruby and Emerald Weapon. However these two dont need to be defeated to complete the game, they are merely there for people who have leveled up a lot and want something else to test their skills.

[Loc Dogg]

Levelling up is a good thing to have in a game, but I always seem to think of it as a chore after you are a fairly high level. Sweet idea Robin! It would make the game a lot more interesting for the players

[Molloy]

Phantasy Star 1/2/4 do a good job of balancing battles. Leveling up helps but you can't use the same moves in every fight. You get poisoned, paralised, sent to sleep etc. and most enemies can only be killed in specific ways.

RPG's can hide their faults so well with graphics and plot but its time someone came up with original game mechanics. All we get these days is shallow hack/slash, leveling up, or turn based tactical. Square should nick D&D rules and try something like Neverwinter Nights did. We've had enough epic stories. I want gameplay.

[saif]

FF8 had a system whereby the enemies were strengthened depending on your level.
But I do think that this was a poor idea as it made the game a bit odd as you went through the world and everything was the same.
Chrono Cross had a system whereby the major level ups were got from the bosses and the normal enemies were just "tweaks" really (unless you fought ****loads of them.
Ultimately, it was really up to the player.

[Afterbirth]

Its no different to any other game, as with most RPGs, you tend to meet creatures that are of an equivelent level so you might feel great that you've levelled up, but the creatures you meet are normally relative in level power so its a bit likeany game whereby you obtain extra weapons or whatever.
This was one of two main reasons i stopped playing RPGS.
The other was fact they're just long winded adventures, and seeing as i don't read fantasy books much, they don't appeal. The graphics, whilst nice, are no more normal to any other intro these days. I liked the idea realtime RPG adventures (like brave fencer mushashi) - with elements of RPG and more interactive adventure type gaming, but these are few and ar between.

[yashiro]

This is a common factor with most RPGs Ive played, I guess I perhaps level up too much maybe, or at least more than I should, but I sometimes wonder if developers could make a little effort in countering people who play the game like I do so that perhaps more challenge and variety could take place. I dont see it as a flaw, just a part of the restrictiveness of games in the RPG genre in that whilst most of the game is build around character development, its the same character development that can ultimatly turn a once interesting game into a complete pushover. Any thoughts?

If you are too powerful in your levelled up state the the game isnt balanced properly. This is a flaw in most rpg's you are correct.
I myself have worked on a few game systems to combat this but never got to use them commercially.

Of course if any rpg ever implements such counter methods will people then complain they are 'breaking the mould'?

[Ady]

Of course if any rpg ever implements such counter methods will people then complain they are 'breaking the mould'?

Not if they care about the progression of the genre...

[Tig]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the whole concept of 'levelling up'. It doesn't require any skill to level up, just hours of play time. In the end you're still doing the same things in each battle - only the numbers have changed.
I reckon that by playing through a game, the player should be gaining experience and competence in battle, not the player's on-screen avatar. If two RPG players were battling their characters, I would want to see the most skilled player win - not the player who's wasted the most hours in repeated enemy battles.
The levelling system is fine in some cases - in PSO, for example, battling is just the backdrop for social interaction. I just don't like to see stat-based combat padding out otherwise gameplay-free 'adventures'.

Sorry, I know this isn't really the point, but it's something I've always been puzzled by. Back in the days of consoles past, numbers and maths had to be used to represent real battles, real skills. Now we're in the age where seamless 3D worlds with scientifically accurate physics are expected as standard. Surely it's time the battle systems were moved on with the times?

[Crisp_Rapper]

I've always felt uncomfortable with the whole concept of 'levelling up'. It doesn't require any skill to level up, just hours of play time. In the end you're still doing the same things in each battle - only the numbers have changed.
I reckon that by playing through a game, the player should be gaining experience and competence in battle, not the player's on-screen avatar. If two RPG players were battling their characters, I would want to see the most skilled player win - not the player who's wasted the most hours in repeated enemy battles.
The levelling system is fine in some cases - in PSO, for example, battling is just the backdrop for social interaction. I just don't like to see stat-based combat padding out otherwise gameplay-free 'adventures'.

Sorry, I know this isn't really the point, but it's something I've always been puzzled by. Back in the days of consoles past, numbers and maths had to be used to represent real battles, real skills. Now we're in the age where seamless 3D worlds with scientifically accurate physics are expected as standard. Surely it's time the battle systems were moved on with the times?

*claps* couldn't have said it better matey. RPGs aren't a test of who's the better gamer, but who has the most patience in doing amazingly repetetive tasks to make your characters climb level after level, nothing changes... same ****, different enemy. booooooooooooooooooring.

[Adam]

RPGs aren't a test of who's the better gamer, but who has the most patience in doing amazingly repetetive tasks to make your characters climb level after level, nothing changes... same ****, different enemy. booooooooooooooooooring.

That's not what RPGs are about at all. RPGs are typicly one player games where you see a story told from start to finish. I enjoy games with leveling up, from the start of the game I usually aspire and look forward to gaining new equiptment, better skills and whatever advantages come from being on a higher level. The story to most games also assume your characters become stronger as near the end your fighting a much greater enemy than you most probably was at the start of the game, and what better way to do that than having your characters 'level up'?

[Loc Dogg]

I agree, with most RPG's, you spend a LONG time levelling up a character and you feel good about it, for a while, then you wonder why you spent so much time on a single game for a short period of happiness, it is annoying.

[tssk]

I quite like the leveling up in Planescape, where more subtle means at overcoming obstacles would grant you much more XP than the brute strength approach.