The rise, fall and rebirth of Western Videogames

[bowser123]

I wish I was hardcore enough to be able to distinguish over where a game comes from.

The quirkiness is how I'd differentiate the origin of your average game.

What this thread has made me realize is that it appears the West are unable to make truly innovative, quirky software.

All the games listed by Brats range from good to exceptional in my eyes, but none can match your average Japanese weirdness. And none are innovate IMO except the novelty (and IMO boring) Eyetoy. Amplitude is class but is no Rez or Vib Ribbon beater either in terms of style or quality.

Or can anybody think of a Western game that can match the Tomato game which Innovator mentioned (never played it myself, read this and want it) , the frankly outlandishness of something like Gitaroo Man, the surrealness of Rez or the plain madness behind Made In Wario and Kero Kero King DX.
The only thing I can think of is the Birdman mode in Pilotwings but I'd presume it was more the input of Nintendo that brought that mode about.

[Sketcz]

Again bowser has hit the nail on the head. Nicely said!
When I said lacking soul, I think he summed it up better, quirky is a good word. Theres often something "off the wall" about Japanese games, even if they are not original. They can take old concepts and make them feel zany and fresh.
Perhaps I dont really want innovation, just what Im comfortable with, except with a zany Japanese coating of fresh paint?

Far too many Western games are obsessed with realism, but not always in a fun kind of way.

I stick by my ground. On average I have not enjoyed Western games of this generation as much, not because they're western, but simply because I found them dull.

Also, as much as I love Eyetoy for being new and fresh, I played it for 2 days before realising none of the games had depth, there was nothing to unlock, and it got old fast.


btw Bowser, Im a little confused with your post, was Pilotwongs 64 a Western devved game?
If so, I must give credit, that was arguably one of my favourite N64 games, which garnered even more play time that OoT or Goldeneye. Loved the way you could invent your own missions.

[Corrupt Rose]

The point I was making is that I don't bother to differentiate. East, West... Timbucktu for all I care. This thread kind of lost it's credability when somebody stated outright that western cinema was rubbish.

It's that kind of Nipponphile masturbatory comment that sows doubt in your mind as to whether people even like these 'quirky' games, or whether their so caught up in the fact that they're playing t3H j4PaN games that any old crap'll get the stamp of approval.

Personally, I don't associate 'quirk' with 'good'.

[Prine]

The point I was making is that I don't bother to differentiate. East, West... Timbucktu for all I care. This thread kind of lost it's credability when somebody stated outright that western cinema was rubbish.

It's that kind of Nipponphile masturbatory comment that sows doubt in your mind as to whether people even like these 'quirky' games, or whether their so caught up in the fact that they're playing t3H j4PaN games that any old crap'll get the stamp of approval.

Personally, I don't associate 'quirk' with 'good'.

Great post

[John Beaulieu]

The point I was making is that I don't bother to differentiate. East, West... Timbucktu for all I care

well said.

good games are good games regardless of where they originate - all territories make good as well as **** games and it saddens me to see that people will disregard particular games solely due to where the developers are based on a map.

i have played my fair share of truely dire japanese developed games, and tried to fool myself into making out they were good due to being japanese - same as with games not developed in japan. the term i give such games is '**** games', not '**** western' or '**** eastern' games - same goes with good games.

[Sketcz]

EDITED:
Im feeling very angry right now.

You seem tense... did you stop drinking today?


Seriously though, I find your tone to be a little harsh.
You claim to be open minded, yet lambast someones thoughts for liking a specific style of game.

I love quirky games.
I live for quirky, zany, zippity bopified games.
I also like a dark chilling cyberpunk adventure once in a while.

If the only thing someone wants to play is bizzare Japanese dating sims, by god, let them! Why insult them?
Some people I know only play sports games, or shooters and beat-em-ups. Surely as part of the gaming brotherhood we should accept all gamers, even if they are misguided by happening to actaully like Western games.

I really cant fathom why you spouted such nonsense back there, normally your posts are sharp and focused.


(btw, that winky above was to symbolise I was kidding about the western gamer thing)

[nips]

ALL of my GC games are Eastern in origin.

80% of my XB games are Western in origin.

I enjoy both greatly. They all have good points and they all have bad. Certainly if my XB holds my interest and most of my games are western then they must be doing something right! Equally, becuase all my GC games are Japanese they can't be doing too bad either. But that's not the point of the thread.

If I buy them, they must be pretty good. Good for them. Thank you!

[Corrupt Rose]

EDITED:
Im feeling very angry right now.

Seriously though, I find your tone to be a little harsh.[/size]

I'm always harsh. It's part of my fake online persona.

Secondly, I lambasted nothing. I said I simply don't automatically associate 'quirky' with 'good'. I don't see anything particularly unfocused about my post. I made my point, and then drew an analogy between people saying that all Western games lack that special "Something", and somebody laughably stating that western cinema is 'rubbish'.

Both coments are patently wrong.

[Corrupt Rose]

ALL of my GC games are Eastern in origin.

80% of my XB games are Western in origin.

I enjoy both greatly. They all have good points and they all have bad. Certainly if my XB holds my interest and most of my games are western then they must be doing something right! Equally, becuase all my GC games are Japanese they can't be doing too bad either. But that's not the point of the thread.

If I buy them, they must be pretty good. Good for them. Thank you!

Buying games on quality rather than region?

Deviant.

[Papercut]

So either I'm mistaking Western polish for innovation (whilst strangely giving due credit to Japanese titles where it's due) or some people are dogmatically refusing to believe that the West is capable of innovation in the current generation and will criticise at any oppurtunity.

Look, I do believe Japanese games are generally more innovative than their Western counterparts, but I'm not saying Western games lack any innovation at all, or are generally worse.

This is the perfect opportunity to criticise that difference, but I'm not criticising beyond that. You will not find another thread in which I generalise so broadly about Western games vs. Japanese games. This is something you have a bee in your bonnet about and you are dogmatically refusing to accept a different view point.

And thats all it is, a different viewpoint. I accept that Western games of a better quality than ever (since the console invasion) are being produced right now, I accept there is some innovation, and I accept that you really like them.

But I personally find Japanese games more interesting. I've played so many first person shooters I could happily go another five years before I buy another. I've been playing games since year dot, and fast accessible game play coupled with quirky unusual ideas are what do it for me. I'm not saying every quirky game is automatically good, but they are automatically more interesting.

I like quirky, unusual games and so generalising, which is what this your discussion forces us to do, means that I've said I prefer the originality on offer in Japanese games over Western ones.

Thats it, a personal preference. I'm not blinkered, I'm not bigoted, I'm not elitist, and I'm not refusing to accept anyone else's point of view.

[df0notfound]

I'm hardly reaching.

Eye Toy is as innovative as anything you could care to mention. PD online is a brand new gameplay concept. GTA3 has taken open ended gameplay further than previously thought possible and is arguable the most influential game of this generation (although the copies are mostly pretty woeful).

Eyetoy has been done years before and doesnt deserve the credit it gets

GTA3 is nowhere near as open ended as some games have been in the past (and thats stuff thats 10+ years ago now)

[df0notfound]

The weird visuals and music are by westerners yet it took a team of Japanese to realise the potential of these two different elements and combine them as a game. Just like Rez which had a good number of western designers involved, it needed a Japanese (Miziguchi) to have the vision in the first place. We obviously have a lot of design talent but western publishers will never support or nurture this talent. Until people stop buying so much licensed **** this will never change.

Hmm I wouldn't give anyone other than Tomato(and underworld of course) themselves credit for that really, I mean they've been doing multimedia stuff for years was only a matter of time before they did a "game".

[Papercut]

I've just remembered someone from Tomato told me about wordimagesoundplay ages ago, when they were looking for a PS2 dev team. The original vision was definately a British one.

[saif]

Tomato are a British design collective so the product is not really "eastern". But as I said before, I would not lump UK and US devs together as I find the outlooks to be quite different.
This "game" by tomato is clearly a pretentious design piece and nothing that most gamers would be interested in. I want it but that is more cos I like tomato than anything else. The thing to note, imo, is that Sony asked them for it (presumably SCEI) and then decided that it was only worth releasing the "western" product in the east.

It is kind of irrelevant WHERE the game comes from but if you are making generalisations, then it happens. Ultimately, we are talking GAMES which are then grouped by dev, then grouped by publisher, then grouped by region.
I would say that online stuff is being handled more adeptly by US devs but I don't think there is really much new in that respect. BUT it is new for videogames so it is a kind of innovation.

The "**** games are ****" concept is obviously true but if you are finding a **** game **** for the same reasons, again and again, and they have similar reasons in common, we lump it together. So it is a crap, unresponsive game. It is a crap, quirky game. It is an arse, soulless game. If you then find that all the **** ridiculous games are from the east....tadaaaa...its a **** eastern game.
I think US devs have made strides towards parity but it is still a long way off imho. But this is all generalisms and there have been plenty of crap jpn games.

[Abhisara]

I like shoot-em-ups, fighters, platformers, puzzle games, rhythm games and games that make you look like a prat when you are playing them. I don't like driving games, FPSs or any of this macho-combat-military-stealth stuff and am fairly indifferent towards RPGs. Now, the Japanese just happen to make more of the style of game I'm interested in. Hence only 13% of my current gen games happen to be of Western origin (most of which appear in Brats' initial list).

As everyone else has said (and has anyone said otherwise?), it's not the region, but the type of game that matters. Frequency, Amplitude and EyeToy all fall into the category above and all sit proudly on my shelf. I'm not interested in PGR2 and Burnout in the same way I'm not interested in Gran Turismo or Initial D (although I'm sure they are all great games to racing fans).

Back to the original topic (i.e. ignoring Japan for a minute):
Western output has definitely improved in the last couple of years, but is still a fair way off from the sort of stuff we used to put out in the UK years ago. I can't put my finger on anything other than there's a "spark" that's missing between now and then.