The rise, fall and rebirth of Western Videogames

[Alf-Life]

If those games are as innovative (haha) as western gaming gets then you've proved my point. Hopefully more publishers will follow Sony and Ubi Soft's lead.

OK, I'm not picking on you directly, but over the last year I've noticed a lot of 'hardcore' gamers saying how much they love Ubi, when before they were 'just another EA type'... I can't help but feel it's because of their poor sales from games like XIII, PoP and BGE.
I mean, I have PoP and BGE, but it's like a lot of 'you' just started singing their praises once they became the underdog.
In fact, the whole West v East thing reminds me of that definition of 'Wapanese' someone on these forums posted from UrbanDictionary...

[Brats]

Look, I do believe Japanese games are generally more innovative than their Western counterparts, but I'm not saying Western games lack any innovation at all, or are generally worse.

Well that's fair enough, but it's not what you said earlier in the thread which was 'In all but the rarest of cases I find modern Western games clinical and dull' and 'Not since the Spectrum, C64 and Amiga have I found Western games truly innovative and ground breaking'. If you'd said what you've just posted in the beginning, I wouldn't have had a problem.

This is the perfect opportunity to criticise that difference, but I'm not criticising beyond that. You will not find another thread in which I generalise so broadly about Western games vs. Japanese games. This is something you have a bee in your bonnet about and you are dogmatically refusing to accept a different view point.

Not at all! The reason why I've been arguing with you is to garner some kind of perspective. This thread was about celebrating what is good from the West and all your original posts did were slam them. I've already said stated clearly that Western publishers have a big problem and that the West cannot do 'quirky' as well as the Japanese. I'm not refusing anything,

And thats all it is, a different viewpoint. I accept that Western games of a better quality than ever (since the console invasion) are being produced right now, I accept there is some innovation, and I accept that you really like them.

Yay! That's all I've been asking for.

But I personally find Japanese games more interesting.

Whic is absolutely fine. I have no problem with people who say they prefer Japanese games, there is a clear difference between East and West and if your prefrence lies in one region or the other, then hell go for it. What I do take issue with though is people dogmatically refusing to acknowledge any kind of credibility for Western games at all.

I'm not really a fan of the Dogma style of films. Never have, never will be. But I can still appreciate the talent involved in making them and the innovations they have brought to cinema.

[Commander Marklar]

But I personally find Japanese games more interesting.

While I don't have a problem with the viewpoint, I do have a problem with the generalisation. I can't belive somebody actually means Japanese games, but more of a particular game style or genre. Not a direct response, the quote seems to sum up the typical response from most posters.

[Papercut]

Look, I do believe Japanese games are generally more innovative than their Western counterparts, but I'm not saying Western games lack any innovation at all, or are generally worse.

Well that's fair enough, but it's not what you said earlier in the thread which was 'In all but the rarest of cases I find modern Western games clinical and dull' and 'Not since the Spectrum, C64 and Amiga have I found Western games truly innovative and ground breaking'. If you'd said what you've just posted in the beginning, I wouldn't have had a problem.

For ****s sake, neither of those statements contradict each other. You are clutching at straws.

Think about what I meant by 'rarest of cases', 'any innovation at all', and 'truly innovative and ground breaking'. I stand by everything I've said in this thread, you seem to be groping for some kind of childish victory.

[hankwangford]

But I personally find Japanese games more interesting.

While I don't have a problem with the viewpoint, I do have a problem with the generalisation. I can't belive somebody actually means Japanese games, but more of a particular game style or genre. Not a direct response, the quote seems to sum up the typical response from most posters.

It's a culture thing IMO. Lots of Japanese games are full of wacky graphics, light hearted fun, anime inspired characters, etc etc, whilst Western games seem to have that more gritty, down to the metal style (there are exceptions such as Rare of course).

i.e. I think very few Western developers would come up with something - design-wise - like Billy Hatcher, just as few Eastern developers could do a Halo.

[Ady]

A very interesting thread, this. I've enjoyed reading it.

All I'll add is that in regards to quirkiness, Japanese quirkiness thranscends games and is essentially a cultural thing. As such, expecting the same thing from western designers is asking a bit much. In other words, it's not fair to criticise westerners for not being easterners.

I also don't believe the Japanese are more innately predisposed to imaginative games (as many seem to be implying). That many Japanese devcos are also publishers gives their teams greater leaway. There are many western coders with imaginative ideas who find themselves constrained by demanding publishers.

[hankwangford]

A very interesting thread, this. I've enjoyed reading it.

All I'll add is that in regards to quirkiness, Japanese quirkiness thranscends games and is essentially a cultural thing. As such, expecting the same thing from western designers is asking a bit much. In other words, it's not fair to criticise westerners for not being easterners.

Agreed. At the end of the day you play the games that suit your own mental culture best.

Bit of everything for me, then.

[bangaio]

This is a very interesting thread. I have too been dragged into believong that Japanese games are "better", but now have a mix of games from all over the place.

Certainly (and not wishing to be controversial) there is a current trend to favouring anything japanese. From box art, styling, or just games from japanese publishers, this has now seemed top spread into most peoples way of life on this forum and games players of all sorts. In the last few months the amount of poeple here I have read about who use this forum and have: Samurai swords, Japanese wives/gitlrfriends/watch a lot of animee, watch films about japan (eg lost in translation or even kill bill), and are just simply going to japan or who a going to live in japan, study japanese....you get the idea.

I am not in anyway judging this, i am sure we have all been heavily influcenced by the fact that a lot of content we play as gamers comes from Japan...but writing off western games because of their origin is another form of this japanese obsession.

I am not really sure where this is going, simply to say that copnsole games from all territories is at it's absolute best at the moment, and western videogames have never been better.

[bowser123]

btw Bowser, Im a little confused with your post, was Pilotwongs 64 a Western devved game?

Obviously the original Pilotwings game was all Nintendo, however for the N64 version they used an American company called Paradigm.
IIRC they were a US company that specialised in flight simulation software for high end PC's. They produced all the technology that made Pilotwings 64 so technically brilliant for the time, and to this day remains one of my top 5 games on any format.

As for the creative input I assume it was all Nintendo, especially as Pilotwings 64 was Paradigms 1st ever game. Paradigm did do enough to get their name on the title screen of the game though, right next to Nintendo's.

[Ady]

Certainly (and not wishing to be controversial) there is a current trend to favouring anything japanese. From box art, styling, or just games from japanese publishers, this has now seemed top spread into most peoples way of life on this forum and games players of all sorts.

Admittedly, I used to be a Everything-From-Japan-Is-Great kind of gamer, but with a bit of objectivity, pragmatism and open-mindedness, you come to realise that this is not the case.

Back in the N64's heyday, a friend had one of those naughty Doctor 64's with a ton of N64 games on CD. We'd spend hours looking at some of the crap on there. A lot of it was Japanese, too. The side of eastern gaming we do not see.

To be fair, a lot of western re-renderings of eastern box-art are dire, though.

In the last few months the amount of poeple here I have read about who use this forum and have: Samurai swords, Japanese wives/gitlrfriends/watch a lot of animee, watch films about japan (eg lost in translation or even kill bill), and are just simply going to japan or who a going to live in japan, study japanese....you get the idea.

Ah, it's like the whole "Japan has the best women" thing I hear a lot. Not true, and merely an extension of the tendency for many gamers regard anything Japanese as sacrosanct.

[Darwock]

We are a demographic, like the white kids who think they're black and dress like Nelly.

[bangaio]

Ah, it's like the whole "Japan has the best women" thing I hear a lot. Not true, and merely an extension of the tendency for many gamers regard anything Japanese as sacrosanct.

Absolutly. I wasnt judging, condoning or condemning this in any way, just really pointing out that there are a lot o fpeople here (amd other games related sites) who seem to think the sun shines out of the land of the rising suns arse so to speak...i guess it does given that analogy but you see what I am saying.

Also i meant to say that to us a Japanese game may seem wild, wacky, and bizare but to a japanese games buyer, may seem really normal.

I guess this may one day go full circle when all the people who didligently buy the latest obscure panda rpg with hentai and whatever, that is unplayable in japanese - featuring a one armed carrot as the main charecter who farts out his speach ...when all these people find this normal, mundane and uninspiring and then launch at the old eastern block games that are by this stage, all gritty fps based around real historical figureheads and world leaders from the past.

[bangaio]

We are a demographic, like the white kids who think they're black and dress like Nelly.

This was mentioned the other day on another thread that i cant remember exactly. Sort of true i guess, i still find it all a bit odd. A bit like teenagers who claim they are being individual and then follow everyone else and have a tatoo, piercings, wear the same clothes as everyone else....a bit of a fad really so not really a demographic just a fashion...

[Ady]

It amuses me when people like that find out a game they've enjoyed was actually a western-developed title. For them, it's a bit like 'that scene' in The Crying Game.

[bangaio]

OMG pilot wings 64 has a cock!!!! (but the Japanese have helped sculpt the breasts so that is ok)