PAL Dreamcast cable

[fallenangle]

Does anyone know what cable type was orginally supplied with a UK PAL DC?

I ask because I've been searching through my old cables, including those included with my stored/boxed unused DC, and the only official DC cables I found are 4 x RF ones and an unmarked but definitely official DC RGB SCART I remember buying later in GAME.

If the DC came with a AV cable/SCART adapter I should have 4 in my cable collection - I don't. The only Sega cables I've 4 of are the RF leads and the only DC AV/SCART I have is one and that looks like a GAME own brand probably put into that last DC bundle I bought along with a GAME brand Memory Unit when they were getting rid of all their DC stuff.

So did the PAL DC really only come normally with just a RF lead?

[moonwhistle]

Yes, just the crappy RF cables were included.

[kernow]

it looked pretty damn good on RF I seem to recall.

[fallenangle]

As compared to what? You jest I suspect.

I've been playing with all my old DC cables in relation to another topic here and nothing else I have matches RGB SCART for either sharpness or colour depth. S-Video is very decent on a 20" CRT and, in isolation, is good enough on a 32" WS CRT (in 4:3 of course). But I dread to think what it would look like on a LCD HD TV which has trouble with SD sources. Using RF you'd probably have a fit :-)

Thanks for the confirmation about the supplied DC cable - I really couldn't remember for sure but that is what I thought must have been the case. Seems a very strange decision.

I found another (DC) forum with some quite recent posts where a guy from Belgium said their DCs came with the official RGB SCART cable. Sounds right to me - third largest games market in the world got RF whilst Belgium got RGB as standard.

[Link83]

I know that the US and Japan got standard Composite AV cables, and as you already know, in the UK we got RF as standard

In France they got RGB Scart cables as standard due to their TV's using SECAM instead of PAL - this is quite typical for games consoles in France, as rather than design/use a new video encoder chip in the console specifically for SECAM colour encoding many manufacturers simply choose to supply an RGB Scart cable as standard to get around the problem. Even the Master System/Mega Drive/SNES etc came with RGB Scart cables in France.

According to Wikipedia here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamcast#Hardware

We were not the only country to get RF as standard - Germany, Italy and Portugal also only got RF cables.

Id imagine that most other European countries got Composite AV cables in the box(?)

Its a shame we only got RF as standard with the Dreamcast, but it was likely due to the big debacle with the UK Saturn. When it launched in 1995 Sega packaged the UK Saturn with RGB Scart cables as standard - but in 1995 not many people in the UK had TV's with Scart inputs so there was a big outcry by many as RF cables had to be bought separately (Imagine you just got home with your new Saturn and then after unpacking realising you couldnt connect it to your TV!) Im pretty sure Sega eventually switched back to including RF cables with mid/later produced UK Saturn's, and thats probably why they stuck with RF cables for the UK Dreamcast.

[kernow]

As compared to what? You jest I suspect.

uh, no actually.

I've been playing with all my old DC cables in relation to another topic here and nothing else I have matches RGB SCART for either sharpness or colour depth.

obviously.

[Lyris]

Dreamcast video output over RGB SCART and VGA was unfiltered. This is why it's so clean and clear.
All other consoles since (COUGH, Wii, COUGH) have usually had heavy flicker filters turned on.

This is bat-**** crazy because flicker filters benefit Interlaced TVs most of all (Shenmue's sharp textures jitter badly on an standard CRT TV) but damage detail on Progressive TVs. If there was any logic to this stuff, it'd have been the other way round.

[Alex_976]

Its a shame we only got RF as standard with the Dreamcast, but it was likely due to the big debacle with the UK Saturn. When it launched in 1995 Sega packaged the UK Saturn with RGB Scart cables as standard - but in 1995 not many people in the UK had TV's with Scart inputs so there was a big outcry by many as RF cables had to be bought separately (Imagine you just got home with your new Saturn and then after unpacking realising you couldnt connect it to your TV!) Im pretty sure Sega eventually switched back to including RF cables with mid/later produced Saturn's, and thats probably why they stuck with RF cables for the Dreamcast.

HEH! I remember at school in the PS vs Saturn days that was a pro reason not to own a Saturn.
Another case of SEGA being ahead of the times only for it to bite them.

[Shinebi]

Yep, both Saturn and DC came with RGB scart in Belgium.
WOOT

[Lyris]

Sega's UK web site actually mentioned RGB SCART as a selling point for the Saturn. They reminded people that the console wouldn't cause incompatibilities with Channel 5 when it launched

Yep, they must have been desparate...

[Link83]

Dreamcast video output over RGB SCART and VGA was unfiltered. This is why it's so clean and clear.
All other consoles since (COUGH, Wii, COUGH) have usually had heavy flicker filters turned on.

This is bat-**** crazy because flicker filters benefit Interlaced TVs most of all (Shenmue's sharp textures jitter badly on an standard CRT TV) but damage detail on Progressive TVs. If there was any logic to this stuff, it'd have been the other way round.

Is the Dreamcasts RGB ouput really unfiltered?

I only ask as I have both a modified Xbox 1 and a Dreamcast hooked up by RGB Scart cables to my CRT TV. On the Xbox you can set the flicker filter anywhere between 0 (off) and 5 (highest). When I set it to 0 the picture jitters really quite badly, so I tend to keep the flicker filter at 1. On the Dreamcast however I have never noticed any jittering at all. I just assumed that if the Dreamcast didnt filter the image at all it would jitter just as badly as the Xbox?

...and I wish the GameCube and Wii didnt use flicker filtering to the max

<EDIT> Lyris, slightly OT but since you know your stuff and all, I wondered if you knew if the flicker filter is still active when using Component cables and 480p for the Xbox 1, GameCube and Wii? I believe its still active when using 480i over RGB Scart and Component cables, but wasnt sure about 480p.

Also, has there been any development on forcibly disabling the flicker filter for original Xbox, GameVube and Wii games? I realise alot of homebrew apps/software give you the option, but I have never seen anything which will disable it on original games.

[SH4R4KU]

The SCART cables are so much better than RF, but RF was very easy to tune and set up. Everyone had an antenna - not everyone had a SCART input. Such a shame. Oh well. Rose tinted specs. My setup is awesome now.

[Lyris]

Is the Dreamcasts RGB ouput really unfiltered?

I only ask as I have both a modified Xbox 1 and a Dreamcast hooked up by RGB Scart cables to my CRT TV. On the Xbox you can set the flicker filter anywhere between 0 (off) and 5 (highest). When I set it to 0 the picture jitters really quite badly, so I tend to keep the flicker filter at 1. On the Dreamcast however I have never noticed any jittering at all. I just assumed that if the Dreamcast didnt filter the image at all it would jitter just as badly as the Xbox?

It depends on the game, I guess. If there's a flicker filter in the DC's video hardware, then colour me surprised.

(Also, what Xbox mod let you adjust the flicker filter? Or was it in a specific game?)

<EDIT> Lyris, slightly OT but since you know your stuff and all, I wondered if you knew if the flicker filter is still active when using Component cables and 480p for the Xbox 1, Gamecube and Wii? I believe its still active when using 480i over RGB Scart and Component cables, but wasnt sure about 480p.

It is, which is totally stupid

Super Smash Bros (Melee and Brawl) have the distinction of letting you turn it off. But a lot of games have it locked on... I remember being disappointed with how blurry the likes of Chibi Robo were compared to older games.

Also, has there been any development on forcibly disabling the flicker filter for original Xbox, Gamcube and Wii games? I realise alot of homebrew apps/software give you the option, but I have never seen anything which will disable it on original games.

I asked mod chip makers to, but they're not video people; they didn't understand the issue. I don't think there's enough awareness of it.

[Link83]

It depends on the game, I guess. If there's a flicker filter in the DC's video hardware, then colour me surprised.

After my last post I was looking up flicker filters and came across this thread:-

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=2306

In which it says:-

A flicker filter is a a weighted average applied normally applied in the DAC.

In it's simplest form it's a 50/50 filter applied to the even and odd fields (although 3 line filters are more common), what this does is remove high contrast color transitions between the fields, reducing interlaced flicker.

Dreamcast used a 3 line filter, as does GC, Xbox allows the developer to specify the extent of the filter 1, 3, or 5 lines. You can effectively enable one on a PS2 aswell, but for some bizarre reason it isn't the default so a lot of PS2 titles shipped without it.

Also, whilst doing some testing today I am pretty sure I managed to get the Dreamcast to disable the flicker filter for a moment! I was using DC-X to boot some PAL & NTSC games and when I choose to force RGB Scart with NTSC the 'Licensed by Sega' screen was totally unfiltered and very jittery - it looked just like just like the Xbox does with the flicker filter off. Once the game loaded it was back on though. I must admit though that the Dreamcast flicker filter (if there definitely is one) is much less obvious than those used by other consoles - it pretty much looks the equivelant of having the Xbox flicker filter set to 1.

I found some more info here by "NickSpolec" - No idea how accurate it is (second post from bottom):-

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20935&page=4

I wonder if the Dreamcasts flicker filter is set at different levels when using different video cables? Im assuming its turned off entirely when in VGA mode, but I wonder what level its on when using RGB Scart?

(Also, what Xbox mod let you adjust the flicker filter? Or was it in a specific game?)

It wasnt a specific game im afraid - just homebrew software such as XBMC etc. Most Xbox Emulators have the option aswell (such as NeoGenesis)
Another little tidbit I found today which seems quite interesting is why the RGB Scart output from the Xbox is so bad (second post):-

http://www.avforums.com/forums/xbox/196390-xbox-flicker-filter-why-picture-soft-rgb-scart.html

On the Xbox, Gamecube and Wii enabling the flicker filter in 480p point:-

It is, which is totally stupid

Thats really annoying
I found some info which suggests that it might not be the flicker filter which is responsible for the softness of GameCube/Wii games in 480p. According to this thread there is a line of game code which deliberately 'softens' progressive scan!:-

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=40785

(Note that the OP of that thread actually wants the flicker filter on!)

Ok, talking to a developer friend of mine, there are 2 specific wii/gcn API calls to turn on deflickering mode.

For interlaced displays, you call GXNtsc480IntDf().

For progressive scan displays, you call GXNtsc480ProgSoft().

Since anti-aliasing is really a side effect of deflickering and you don't actually deflicker anything in 480p, the api ends with "soft" in proscan, instead of "df" for interlaced displays.

Presumably if a modchip could somehow remove/alter 'df' and 'soft' it would remove the interlaced 'flicker filter' and progressive 'softening' entirely. If we could only get a modchip (or homebrew if its possible) to impliment it somehow...

Super Smash Bros (Melee and Brawl) have the distinction of letting you turn it off. But a lot of games have it locked on... I remember being disappointed with how blurry the likes of Chibi Robo were compared to older games.

Apparently GameCube Pikmin 2 also allows you to disable the flicker filter aswell, I dont know if they have carried this feature across to the 'new play control' Wii version or not.

I asked mod chip makers to, but they're not video people; they didn't understand the issue. I don't think there's enough awareness of it.

Perhaps if you could point out the necessary code I linked to above thats used to change the Gamecube/Wii video modes they would be more interested in trying? There some more Wii video code info here:-

http://www.devkitpro.org/libogc/video__types_8h.html

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Also, could I just double check I have all this right in my head:-

"A flicker filter is only ever of any benefit if your are displaying an interlaced picture on a CRT TV - and thats also the only time where it can actually be detrimental to turn it off as it can cause the picture to 'jitter' (I myself am using a CRT so notice this difference)

With any other screen type (LCD, Plasma, etc) the flicker filter is always detrimental as it blurs the original video image and your TV will have to try and compensate. If the flicker filter is disabled it will not cause the screen to 'jitter' as it would on a CRT TV because all other display technologies only display progressive images.

A flicker filter should never be used when in progressive scan modes, but it is very rarely (if ever) disabled as it should be."

Does that all sound about right? Im unsure if the last sentance only applies to the Gamecube/Wii, or if other consoles are affected aswell?

Sorry for all the long posts recently, and thanks for reading (and sorry again for going off topic!)

[Lyris]

Dreamcast used a 3 line filter, as does GC, Xbox allows the developer to specify the extent of th filter 1, 3, or 5 lines. You can effectively enable one on a PS2 aswell, but for some bizarre reason it isn't the default so a lot of PS2 titles shipped without it.

That surprises me - it might be my memory of playing DC games over RGB SCART being bad, but I wonder if it's the case that only the Composite and S-Video output is filtered.

That would make sense given that the VGA out definitely is, and both RGB signals are derived from the same place. The flicker filter is probably on the video encoder chip INSTEAD of the graphics hardware (I believe it was 2 separate chips), so RGB output in any form - be it RGBs over Scart or RGBHV over VGA - escapes it?

"A flicker filter is only ever of any benefit if your are displaying an interlaced picture on a CRT TV

<...>

A flicker filter should never be used when in progressive scan modes, but it is very rarely (if ever) disabled as it should be."

Does that all sound about right? Im unsure if the last sentance only applies to the Gamecube/Wii, or if other consoles are affected aswell?

Yes, this is correct I'm afraid. "Flicker filter" sounds like a good thing, so I'd wager a lot of people who should know better choose to turn it all on, and anal retentive video geeks like me get exasperated in the process. The situation is very similar on DVD-Video; just about everything is low-pass filtered because most professional MPEG2 encoders come with this set up as the default. A couple of BD releases also have the problem (The Simpsons Movie, South Park Season 12).