DVD green screen + PS2

[fallenangle]

Do the newer slimline (and older PSTwo for that matter) still have the RGB SCART DVD green screen copy protection feature?

Short of modding or using Region X type boot discs is there any way around the green screen with RGB SCART? Are there, for instance, any RGB cables that incorporate Macrovision bypass of some sort (or whatever the green screen is caused by)?

I ask because on another forum I've come across somebody claiming that even though they're using one of those mutli-console RGB cables with a CV/RGB switch on the PS2 lead they aren't getting the green screen with DVDs. Apparently which ever way the switch is set there is no problem.

I suspect a). he is either unknowingly using a non-RGB TV socket or, more likely, b), the switch on the cable is faulty.

Any other possibilities?

[sj33]

Is the guy's machine modded?
Basically, the machine just uses YCpCr (i.e Component) instead of RGB when playing DVD's over SCART. You hook up a Component cable to a SCART socket with an adaptor and you will get the same green screen. It is unknown if this is an attempt at copy protection, or laziness on Sony's behalf. The DVD Region X just software-patches the thing to output RGB instead.

Most modchips include a fix for the RGB thing, so if this guy has a modded machine, that could be causing it.

[egparadigm]

Some PS2 cables have a "DVD" switch. When the cable is in that mode, it outputs composite signal to avoid the green screen issue.

There's no way to play PS2 DVDs in RGB without a modification.

[fallenangle]

Is the guy's machine modded?
Basically, the machine just uses YCpCr (i.e Component) instead of RGB when playing DVD's over SCART. You hook up a Component cable to a SCART socket with an adaptor and you will get the same green screen. It is unknown if this is an attempt at copy protection, or laziness on Sony's behalf. The DVD Region X just software-patches the thing to output RGB instead.

Most modchips include a fix for the RGB thing, so if this guy has a modded machine, that could be causing it.

No his machine isn't modded.

Sorry to say this but your description isn't quite right (see later post for my apology - the description is right)

With DVDs using RGB SCART it defaults to CV (Composite Video) not Component (YUV/YPbPr/YCbCr).*

* should have read: "With DVDs when using a switchable RGB SCART it defaults to CV .............etc."

The switch you find on some 'Ultimate' PS2 RGB cables switches the cable to CV for use with DVDs. I assume it just turns off the RGB switching control (SCART pin 16), presumably the presence or abscence of a voltage on that pin is what tells the PS2 it's in RGB mode and triggers it to produce the green screen with DVDs.

Does anyone know how the Region X boot discs actually work to get around the green screen?

BTW I have read that for RGB the PS2 uses Sync on Green rather than Sync on Composite (pin 20) can anyone here confirm that?

[Link83]

I could be wrong here (I dont know all that much about PlayStations) but I think Shakey_Jake33 is right on this On the PS2 the same pins that are used for RGB are also used for Component YPbPr, and the PS2 only switches between the two output modes in software. When going to DVD mode the PS2 switches to Component output on the same RGB pins. The Region X boot disk probably just forces the RGB mode in software, over-riding the PS2 bios.

In other words a PS2 RGB Scart cable always carries a Composite signal, but the RGB wires can be switched between carring RGB signals or YPbPr Component signals in software, at any time the PS2 chooses (Such as when entering DVD playback mode) This causes a 'green screen' because you TV isnt desiged to accept Component signals over RGB scart. Because Composite Video is always active in either mode you can just use that signal instead to get a colour picture in DVD mode, by having a switch in the Scart cable (But reducing the picture quality to Composite of course )

From what I have read RGB ouput was purposefully disabled in DVD mode as it doesnt support any copy security such as Macrovision. This is also the reason why there has never been any RGB Scart connections in the USA, because the 'big companies' didnt like the idea of people having access to the 'pure' RGB signal, for fear they could make perfect copies of movies (although I dont think anyones ever recorded a movie in 'RGB Scart quality'!) All outputs in the USA are either slightly degraded in some way (RF, Composite, S-Video) so as to make it worth owning the original (Ever tried copying a VHS Video tape more than once?) or they are capable or using some sort of security encryption (Component, HDMI) Dont forget that HDMI isnt being pushed for 'better picture quality', but for the HDCP security it offers

Lastly, there has to be a Sync signal on the Composite Video line at all times, otherwise you could not get a stable Composite picture. However, the PS2 does also enable 'sync on green' but only when you force VGA mode:-

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:playstationav

(Damn smiley codes!)
Unless I have misunderstood your question

Sorry for the long-winded post!

[fallenangle]

Apologies - I re-read Shakey_Jake33's post properly this time and I realise now that I misunderstood what he was saying.

The explanation that the green screen is caused by it switching to Component makes sense of a lot of things. So what you're saying is that booting a DVD triggers a software instruction to output Component and Region X over-rides that forcing it back to RGB.

Sounds right but I still do not understand the purpose of the copy protection. The PS2 outputs Component which is a mathmatically derived three colour system producing very similar PQ to RGB with interlaced sources and, of course, supports progressive scan unlike RGB.

If the green screen system is there to prevent high quality copying of DVDs why is the Component output not similarly hobbled? Surely there are copying systems that use Component inputs.

Thanks for the other info, particularly the sync question too. What it tells me is that there is plenty of dodgy info out there on the web connected this subject and it pays to check it is correct with a known reliable source before passing it on yourself.

[Link83]

The explanation that the green screen is caused by it switching to Component makes sense of a lot of things. So what you're saying is that booting a DVD triggers a software instruction to output Component and Region X over-rides that forcing it back to RGB.

Exactly

Sounds right but I still do not understand the purpose of the copy protection. The PS2 outputs Component which is a mathmatically derived three colour system producing very similar PQ to RGB with interlaced sources and, of course, supports progressive scan unlike RGB.

If the green screen system is there to prevent high quality copying of DVDs why is the Component output not similarly hobbled? Surely there are copying systems that use Component inputs.

Think there might be a slight misunderstanding here, the 'green screen' symptom is nothing to do with any copy protection, its just a side effect of putting a Component YPbPr signal over a TV input thats expecting RGB - the TV obviously trys to interpret the signals as RGB.

Just coincidentally the PS2's Component Y/Luma signal (black and white picture information):-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(video)
Is also output on same pin as the RGB Green pin/wire, so your TV just makes a green picture as thats the only picture information it 'understands' if that makes sense. If this wasnt the case you wouldnt get any picture at all.

This is also exactly the same thing that happens with the Wii when playing NTSC games over an RGB Scart cable - again just coincidentally the Y/Luma signal is also output on the same pin/wire as one of the RGB signals - this time though its the Red signal, so you get a totally red picture (instead of green as with the PS2).

The 'macrovision' security protection is actually embedded into the Component video signal - its like how HDCP is embedded into HDMI. Theres some more info here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrovision#Analog_copy_protection

Manufacturers could quite easily make HDMI or Component signals without copy protection (In fact I dont think any protection is enabled when playing games, only when playing DVD, Blu-ray, etc) but most of the big film publishers required that some form of security be used. It should be unnoticeable to the end user - your TV should do all the security/decoding so you'll never really notice it unless you have a problem, but it is still there.

Back when the PS2 was first launched I think the 'DVD consortium' made it a requirement that macrovision security be used when using connections higher than S-Video - this meant the PS2 couldnt output RGB when playing back DVD's because RGB Scart does not support macrovision security in any form - its not in the specification. Thats why the PS2 switches to Component YPbPr instead.

Also when the PS2 launched I dont think there were any devices capable or recording YPbPr (Im not even sure if there are that many today?) Soon after though devices that could defeat macrovision security were produced, just like how HDCP had been 'cracked' before it was even introduced.

To me though it all seems like a stupid way to impliment copy protection - if you were going to a copy a movie you wouldnt record the whole thing using an RGB/Component/HDMI connection - You would just copy the actual DVD/Blu-ray disk. If big film publishers really wanted to stop piracy they should stop manufacturers selling DVD/Blu-ray Drives capable of burning the disks, or stop them producing the media to burn to (However please dont think im condoning piracy in any way)

I think I remember reading that the DVD consortium relaxed the rules abit when a few years later the Xbox was launched, and thats why RGB Scart DVD playback works with the Xbox - but even then they imposed a limit that the Xbox could not support Component DVD playback at 480p, even though the Xbox was technically capable of it (Modded Xbox FTW )

Sorry again for typing so much

Thanks for the other info, particularly the sync question too. What it tells me is that there is plenty of dodgy info out there on the web connected this subject and it pays to check it is correct with a known reliable source before passing it on yourself.

No problem, glad I could help

[sj33]

Sounds like Macrovision took the clueless executives for the chumps that they clearly were.

I'm confused though, haven't RGB-capable standalone DVD Players always existed?

[Link83]

Sounds like Macrovision took the clueless executives for the chumps that they clearly were.

I'm confused though, haven't RGB-capable standalone DVD Players always existed?

Yes I think your right but I wonder if there were RGB-capable DVD players at the time the PS2 launched? I know DVD was really in its infancy at the time. Perhaps it was a year or so later before RGB-capable DVD players came out/were allowed?

Otherwise it was likely just a was a huge cock up by Sony. Perhaps you have to pay an extra DVD licencing fee to include RGB support? Or maybe they never even though about it as its only an issue for Europe, and the PS2 was designed primarily for the Japanese/USA market? Perhaps when Sony signed the contract with the DVD licensing consortium they forgot about needing RGB Scart output for Europe, and when they did finally realise it would have cost too much/been too difficult to alter the contract? I guess we will never really know the specific reason, but it does really seem like an oversight by Sony.

I also know that the macrovision security on the PS2 caused quite alot of problems for people who found their TV/Setup incompatible with macrovision (Google:- PS2 Macrovision)

{EDIT} Also found this interesting quote from a GameFAQ here:-

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/915821/7201

but its apparently taken from the "EE Times"

More PS2 Problems: MACROVISION
PlayStation2: PlayStation2 owners have discovered a second way to exploit the console - the analog RGB output is now being used to illegally copy DVD content to videotape.

According to the EE Times, this act circumvents the system's copy-protection technology and the technique is already being discussed on Japanese websites. Owners of the console have already been able to subvert a geographical code for DVDs.

A company spokesman said that Sony installed in PlayStation2 appropriate means of preventing any illegal analog-to-analog copying, by providing security coding from Macrovision for all the system's output interface signals: RGB, composite, component and S-Video. Sony worked with Macrovision, the Sony spokesman said.

The issue is whether or not Sony has violated a DVD industry agreement that prohibits DVD players from having an analog RGB interface. If so, Hollywood studios could take some form of action against gaming giant.

SCE has acknowledged that problems with copy protection can arise from the use of an analog RGB interface, but said the company did nothing wrong and that the RGB interface on the PlayStation 2 complies with the DVD specs.

A Sony Picture Entertainment source said, "Although we have not received any technical information about this issue yet, if the content is actually being copied from PlayStation2, we need to discuss matters with Sony Computer Entertainment to take effective measures."

Expect to hear more on this soon.

Guess some people did use the RGB output to record DVD's to VHS afterall!

I also wasnt aware that macrovision is enabled on all other PS2 video outputs? (Composite, S-Video and Component - but not RGB it seems?) I had thought it was just Component connections that were affected by macrovision copy protection.

Considering that you cant actually record RGB on a VHS tape im guessing they were converting the analogue RGB output into RF/Composite/S-Video and then straight into a VCR - simply as an easy way to circumvent the macrovision protection that was active on the other outputs.

Also, it seems analogue RGB was enabled for DVD playback on the first Japanese PS2 consoles, but once Sony realised their mistake they disabled it for the USA/European consoles?

{EDIT2} Found the original EE Times article here which is a much bigger and interesting read:-

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20000324S0016

I like this quote:-

Engineering executives at leading DVD hardware manufacturers, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, expressed frustration with the situation. They claimed that the DVD Copy Control Association Inc. (DVD CCA), a licensing agency based in Morgan Hill, Calif., has prohibited outfitting any DVD player with an analog RGB output. The only exception is a Scart connector, a 21-pin connector used in Europe that includes RGB output pins and comes with its own copy protection measure.

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me - what "own copy protection measure" are they talking about!? RGB Scart has no copy protection - except for the fact that at the time you couldnt record RGB directly, as no VHS recorder accepted an RGB input (If you tried you were just recording the Composite signal) But that doesnt stop people from converting RGB into other formats to record it, as was explained in the article. I cant believe some people even used a Micomsoft X-RGB for the conversion!

Oh and I would ignore the bit in the article about the conversion devices 'removing' macrovision protection from the RGB signal - thats a load of rubbish. I'm almost positive analog RGB has never had any form of copy protection, and in fact the article contradicts itself in quite a few places by saying RGB does and then doesnt have copy protection.

Also found even more info here!:-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/03/27/hackers_use_playstation/

Almost seems to confirm that Sony would likely be revising the PS2 DVD Playback for the USA/European launch.

It all builds up a picture of just how much fear there was of DVD copying at that time.

...and sorry, once again I ended up making a post much longer than I intended, doh!

[sj33]

I actually have the official Sony PS2 RGB Scart cable somewhere, and it has no warning about DVD's not working with the cable - that's very naughty of Sony!

[Link83]

I actually have the official Sony PS2 RGB Scart cable somewhere, and it has no warning about DVD's not working with the cable - that's very naughty of Sony!

Yeah, it also almost seems like a last minute change - perhaps all the accessories had already been produced ready for launch when the change was made?

Also, I have added new links to some interesting news articles at the bottom of my previous post

[fallenangle]

Thanks for all the info - it's put me right on several things. So the green screen is esentially just a by-product of the switch to Component when playing DVDs via a RGB SCART cable and not really a deliberate part in the copy protection system. Over the years I've come across so many posts on other forums who clearly haven't understood this either.

BTW I have discovered the solution to the problem which prompted this thread. The guy in question inadvertently supplied the answer in a later post when I asked for more details of his set up. He has his PS2 connected to the TV via a VCR, something I didn't even consider.

[BearBoy]

Yes I think your right but I wonder if there were RGB-capable DVD players at the time the PS2 launched? I know DVD was really in its infancy at the time. Perhaps it was a year or so later before RGB-capable DVD players came out/were allowed?

I had a DVD player in 1999 (a Sony DVP-S725D) which could output RGB, via scart, and component video. Pretty sure they could all output at least RGB at the time; little point upgrading to DVD IMHO if you were going to use composite.

I had it hardware chipped to be multi-region. Seem to remember that one of the other features of the chip was that it disabled macrovision.