LCD/Plasma/CRT/DLP - more questions

[Adrock]

I cant be the only one who's noticed people upgrade their LCDs/plasmas more often then CRTs though? Used to be you bought a CRT and that was going to be yours for 10 yrs.

I think the picture quality of LCD had improved rapidly. I imagine more recent models offer marginal gains, its must have been the same with CRT.

Also, people are rampantly consuming when compared with the old days.

What kind of money would you have to spend on an LCD based screen to get something comparable to a plasma, or are they so different its not possible?

[danholo]

Shame to see Panasonic wrapping up plasmas, I just bought one of theirs recently and it's superb. I hope by the time I come to buy another TV OLED will have become widely available.

Yes, indeed. I bought a new TV at the beginning of this year after quite a bit of research. I was going to get an LCD at first but opted for a Plasma. I got previous year's model Panasonic TX-P42ST50 (Scandinavian model), just as they were going out, and it really is superb. It was quite a good deal for the quality. The only thing I'm 'disappointed' with was the fact that it's 'too small'. . I got this model based on reviews. Supposedly this years model is about the same, so I'm very pleased with my purchase. On the other hand, if OLEDs will be as good, if not better than Plasmas, what's the difference? Our TVs will last a while and next time we're about to get one, I'm pretty sure there will be something better on offer.

What kind of money would you have to spend on an LCD based screen to get something comparable to a plasma, or are they so different its not possible?

About 2000?! I don't know really know but the only good reviews an LCD got was the high-end Sony models.

[danholo]

delete please

[Lyris]

No more Panasonic plasmas apparently ZT60 will be their last flagship. Have to say I'm quite sad but not surprised, the amount of joe bloggs I've spoken to over the last 5 years who think Screen Burn and Image Retention are still serious issues with the tech proves to me that all the false info put out there from the pro LCD camp worked marvellously.

Every delivery driver who drops prototypes and review samples off at my place always talks about how he's got a flat telly but it's an LED because "the picture quality is better". If you judge picture quality in a bright shop (which isn't an unreasonable thing for the average person to do) I can see why they think that.

Still, Panasonic stopping Plasma R&D could have come at a much worse time. I'm reviewing the 2013 models at the moment and honestly, I don't feel there is much further for the quality to go. The black levels on their mid range models are already at 0.005 cd/m2 (close to zero) and the ZT60 (called ZT65 in the UK) should be deeper still.

Also, it's likely they will use the same panels in a 2014 range, so it's the end of R&D rather than the end of TV.

Put another way, LCD R&D may still be ongoing, but it's seen very few advances in recent years. Plasma is where the picture quality improvements have been happening lately. Whereas most LCD manufacturers are "innovating" through more and more video processing which we want to shut off anyway.

What kind of money would you have to spend on an LCD based screen to get something comparable to a plasma, or are they so different its not possible?

It's not possible. PDP is just ahead, in my opinion.

Another issue is the way PDP and LCD draw images. At HDTVtest we use the Leo Bodnar Input Lag tester and it's often the case that it reports similar lag figures for an LCD and PDP (~45ms for example). However, 45ms on the LCD feels much clunkier than 45ms on the Plasma.

My current theory is that it relates to how the panel is updated. Plasma displays update the picture many times in one send (this is where figures like "600hz" come from) just to draw one video frame, drawing one part of the dynamic range and then flashing up the next part (the eye puts it all together). Whereas on an LCD, the image is updated line at a time from top to bottom.

For playing video games, my theory is that the human eye+brain can make sense of inbetween (not fully formed) plasma frames because they still contain visual information about the game world on screen, just not fully drawn information. But it's impossible for the brain to make sense of a line that just hasn't been drawn at all, as is the case with LCD.

That's one reason why a plasma with low input lag is such fun for gaming. Provided your brain is compatible with the drawing method (some people can't stand the double image effect that PDP reveals with 30fps games).

[Lyris]

Supposedly this years model is about the same, so I'm very pleased with my purchase.

The ST60 has quite bad input lag (by our gamer standards) but a deeper black level.

The GT60 and up has the better black level, low input lag, and high gradation. GT60 and up, that's the big kahuna

[Lyris]

Oops, delete please!

[gIzzE]

Worried you might upset a few people?


The closest I have had to a plasma is the Sony HX923, however....

There are still so many limitations to the LCD tech.
Number one is viewing angle.

I had my Plasma in this position, fine for everyone in the room....


But the LCD was a wash out for anyone on the left sofa or the chair you can't see to the right of the picture.

So we had to move it here, and even then it lost ultimate black levels form every seating position, the only good place was sat on the floor between the 2 sofas!



Then you have black levels, the screen simply couldn't do deep blacks unless the whole screen was black, as soon as you got something light on there the blacks looked washed out, sitting it next to the Panasonic this was very obvious and a bit annoying, compared with the Pioneer it was a joke.
The Sony actually went darker than the Panny plasma on a dark scene, but info was missing, it looked cloudy black.

It is the ability of a plasma to show the blackest blacks with the brightest whites at the same time that gives that lifelike 3D depth you simply can't get with backlight based technology.

Then there was motion, with loads of processing turned on the Sony was good, very good, but not like a plasma, a plasma being phosphor based is like a big CRT, and that is what I am used to, I don't think I want to get used to the motion on an LCD, I know I would, but I also know it looks processed.

Fiddling!!
That is all I ever did with the LCD, adjust picture setting depending on the time of day, adjust depeding on the material I was watching, it drove me insane!!
Plasma, get home, calibrate and then never touch the picture controls again.
I tell a lie, I just redid my Pioneer at 7500 hours.

LCD type tech has got to the point where it is watchable, but it is still so far behind plasma that I will only use it if I have no other option.

[gIzzE]

This is what I mean about showing the gradients from black to white on one shot...



The plasma just looks like you would expect real life to look.

I could never get that 'looking through a window' image from any LCD, on bright outdoor scenes it did, but as soon as it started moving or there was inky blacks it fell apart.

That was the other thing, motion resolution, our 1080p Panasonic E6 in the conservatory looks positively blurred compared with the old 480p Panasonic plasma. On still images it looks much sharper, but as soon as the image starts moving the LCD throws away about 75% of its resolution I would guess.
I love my football, tennis, golf, cricket etc. and that is worth buying a plasma for alone.

[dvdx2]

Currently enjoying a whole new experience of viewing on my panasonic 55VT65 plasma. Totally different ball game to LCD

[Lyris]

Worried you might upset a few people?

Worse - re-answered a question I already answered months ago!

The biggest difference with PDP is the uniformity. That's what does it for me. If good content on PDP is like "looking through a window", then LCD is like looking through a dirty window with streaks on it. And uh, it's also a magic window which makes everything wash out if you dare sit off-axis.

A lot of people are terrified of buying PDP because they've heard tons of comments about burn. The irony is that a "good" LED LCD has worse uniformity than a burned plasma. (Although I don't doubt that having a logo stuck on your screen would be annoying).

[Soundwave]

GizzE,

Totally off topic but that is one lovely living room you have there.

Looks stunning.

Anyway back to TV chat

Neil

[gIzzE]

David I agree, mate has a Sony with big blotches every where, but 'Iwould never buy a plasma cause I couldn't live with image retention." WTF??!!


Cheers Neil, it is an old 19th Century property so we wanted to keep it quite traditional, I was only 30 when we moved here so was a bit strange not going modern.
10 year later we're ready to redo it now, but might convert the place into 3 flats instead and try and pay off of the mortgage and start somewhere else.

[Baseley09]

Recently got a GT50 and it smokes. I mean it does get really hot but quality wise it destroys most things I've seen. Impress.

?700 for 50" too from John Lewis, what's to hate.

[Soundwave]

Cheers Neil, it is an old 19th Century property so we wanted to keep it quite traditional, I was only 30 when we moved here so was a bit strange not going modern.
10 year later we're ready to redo it now, but might convert the place into 3 flats instead and try and pay off of the mortgage and start somewhere else.

And bloody lovely it is too, a real credit buddy, looks absolutely perfect & is how I'd like my place to look should I ever win the lottery & get out of the blasted rental trap.

Neil

[gIzzE]

I'm thinking over going over to renting!!

I'm not sure if home owning is all it is cracked up to be.

Mind you guess it depends where you live and what rental prices are like compared with buying.

There is a house up for rent round the corner at ?1500 a month, yet when it was on the market it was ?425,000. That mortgage would be ?2600 a month at 4%
I think sticking the ?1200 a month saved into somthing else may be a better bet, all the estate agent owners round here all rent, got to say something?

I think the problem over here is short term rentals, if you could agree something for 5 years or longer it would be better. You would be happy to put carpets in or do more to the rental property.
At the end of the day we have a house that we pay for when we retire and then they make us sell it to pay for medical and or care homes etc. Not sure why we bother?

Anyway, way off topic, but I guess we need properties to put our big panels and projectors.