1-Chip SNES/SFC Vs. Standard

[Escape-To-88]

Thought the comparison videos were interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2OOxIZMNM8

[Leon Retro]

with a 1 chip you are seeing RGB on the same quality level as the MD or Neo Geo. If your playing on a consumer set then it's not so bad but if you have a PVM/BVM you want a perfect pic

It's strange because I love how razor sharp the image is with my AES, but Mega Drive games can look quite rough in places when the image is really sharp.

Of course, I can admire how sharp the image looks with a 1-Chip, but I definitely prefer the slight bit of softness a standard SFC/SNES has with RGB.

When I went back to a Trinitron CRT, I noticed that the RGB image doesn't look as razor sharp as when using an emulator on a computer. It looks really clear and vibrant, but there's definitely an element of slight softness that I think helps 8-bit & 16-bit games to look a bit more attractive.

Some people prefer razor sharpness though, so it's down to personal taste. I've decided that severe sharpness isn't my cup of tea. I don't want some sort of 'bilinear' filtering, as that's terrible, but a little bit of softness looks nice to my eyes.

[Leon Retro]

Thought the comparison videos were interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2OOxIZMNM8

I think a good comparison is the Goemon games. I played Goemon 1 & 2 on my SFC Jr with C-sync -- and it looks ultra sharp like with an emulator. Then I played them on a standard SFC -- and I prefer how the sprites have a little bit of softness around the edges. It makes sprites look more attractive to my eyes.

I think a standard SFC/SNES isn't just like putting a filter over the whole image. It adds a nice bit of softness to rough details and the edges on sprites. Of course, if someone really likes a severe 'emulator' look, they'll love a 1-Chip.

When using a Pi, you can choose between 'Linear or Nearest' in the options. I choose 'Linear' because 'Nearest' looks too sharp. Linear gives a slightly softer image akin to using a standard SNES.

[Escape-To-88]

When using a Pi, you can choose between 'Linear or Nearest' in the options. I choose 'Linear' because 'Nearest' looks too sharp. Linear gives a slightly softer image akin to using a standard SNES.

Surely this only applies when using shaders? I'm going to assume you meant the bilinear filter, as that is comparable to a 2/3 chip and a 1Chip-03 difference I reckon.

[Leon Retro]

I'm going to assume you meant the bilinear filter,

Bilinear

No, a standard SNES doesn't look like 'vaseline' bilinear.

When using a Pi, you can choose to scale with 'Linear or 'Nearest. Linear gives a little bit of softness to the image -- so sprites don't look ultra sharp. Nearest makes things razor sharp -- to the point where I think it looks too severe.

Of course, that video you posted gives the impression that a standard SNES delivers a terribly blurry image. That's not what I've ever seen using standard SFC/SNES machines since 1991. You just get an image that is a bit soft. A 1-Chip takes away all the softness to make everything look really sharp. Sprites then have rougher edges.

I'm not defending the standard SNES, but just saying that the 1-Chip ultra sharp image isn't necessarily more attractive. It can make sprites and certain details look rougher. So it's all down to personal taste.

I had a chat about the 1-Chip with someone a while back and they also felt the extra sharpness made some details look rough.

Anyway, I've confirmed that a 1-Chip delivers a very sharp image. That's definitely something lots of people really like. I personally prefer the bit of softness a standard SNES exhibits.

[Escape-To-88]

Bilinear

When using a Pi, you can choose to scale with 'Linear or 'Nearest. Linear gives a little bit of softness to the image -- so sprites don't look ultra sharp. Nearest makes really razor sharp -- to the point where I think it looks too severe.
.

All I was really asking is where the option was for linear or nearest, since I've only ever seen this option in the shaders menu using RGB-Pi or Pi2SCART. I've booted in again and can't locate it at all, unless I'm on an LCD/Plasma screen using shaders, something like CRT-Pi, for example. If you could help me locate the scale option on the 240p versions that would be great, cheers.

[Leon Retro]

If you could help me locate the scale option on the 240p versions that would be great, cheers.

This is how it looks in the 'RetroArch' menu using a Pi with HDMI.

I haven't explored my RGB-Pi system, as it looks perfect on my Trinitron, so I haven't felt like messing around with it.

This might be useful: https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/...ame-scaling/13

I read that using 'nearest' can cause a 'shimmer'.

Anyway, my whole point about 'linear & nearest' was that a standard SNES is similar to 'linear' and a 1-Chip is more like using 'nearest'. A standard SNES has a bit of softness to make sprites and certain details look less rough.

If anyone says a standard SNES image is like 'bilinear filtering', I would have to strongly disagree. Using a standard SNES with a good RGB Scart lead, you should get a reasonably clear image that has a bit of softness next to a 1-Chip.

[Escape-To-88]

Yes, it's shaders on a modern set. As I said previously I'm aware of this. Your post made it seem like it applied to general video scaling. I was looking for an accurate CRT comparison, which this wouldn't be since it only applies to using a Pi on a modern television.

[ascensionaquila]

The thing about old technology designed mostly to run on a screen like a Sony S series CRT trinitron screen. I suspect it was never intended to have visible pixelation, one of the most annoying things on the planet surely is modern ignorant people believing old games used to be pixelated, of course it's not true, screens used to be blurred, so you woulnd't rarely see any pixels, and this was actually intended! it's important that a perfect picture isn't a sharp picture, but a degree of sharpness, a certain point. On regular priced screens, visible pixelation would have been impossible. Thereby improving the game experience. On a very expensive screen with near perfect sharpness the slightly blurring SNES offered the intended picture quality perfection free of visible pixelation. As intended. The optimal picture quality without becoming unpleasantly sharp.

If you don't fully understand what I mean. Give yourself time to process what I mean, yeah I edited and rephrased some parts so you might notice discontinuity in some sentences, sorry about that. It's not something I can explain in five minutes easily.

Anybody that has infinite level of sharpening available on a screen, you can test yourself, too much makes the image unbearable to view. I recommend investigating how much sharpness is too much if you don't believe me.

I guess it depends on who you would call an expert. Anybody can do research in hindsight sourcing internet sources. Or whether you would value real world experience and expert opinion over a few minutes checking internet sources.

Leon Retro has owned every type of SNES, and had articles published with his real world experiences on the topic including one article in EDGE magazine, back in the days his health was a little better, non of his ideas are from a five minute cross referencing the internet, they're actually real experiences, eye balls, and intelligence based, he's owned every type of custom picture quality mod over 15 different SNES of the best serial numbers, CRT TV & Monitors in the high end brackets, RGB modifications, over 40 different RGB custom modified SNES cables from different custom cable builders spanning all continents.

Now you can say that experience means nothing.
That these people that do their research in hindsight using
'internet sources'
know better than those basing their opinions on actual experience.

I think it's a matter of personal preference who you guess knows best or to trust.
I'd avoid the erroneous idea of whose right and whose wrong, what an anti-social motto,
pretty sure the idea is we have opinions to share, thats all.
No hard feelings.

[Escape-To-88]

I asked a question about visible difference on a CRT, the 'linear' and 'nearest' references shaders, which one wouldn't use on a CRT. I'm not here to compare dick sizes but having rebuilt and repaired several monitors, consumer and broadcast sets I'm well aware how a CRT works and yes I 'fully understand what you're talking about'. I couldn't locate the scaling option and assumed Leon had. Turns out it was exactly what I suggested, that it relates to shaders.

Thanks for everyone that helped out with answers.

[Leon Retro]

I asked a question about visible difference on a CRT, the 'linear' and 'nearest' references shaders,

Linear & nearest are to do with scaling. I used them as an analogy to explain how similar the difference between a standard & 1-Chip SNES is. You have the choice: a bit of softness to the image, or razor sharp.

People can assume that there's something wrong with a standard SNES/SFC -- that the designers didn't think a bit of softness looked nicer than severe sharpness. I think it was probably an intentional choice on their part.

Anyway, I've explained that a 1-Chip gives a severely sharp image. I personally prefer the image a standard SNES delivers. It's best to test both types of SNES/SFC and decide what you find preferable.

Now let's discuss what I think of my De-blur N64. I'm always happy to give my honest opinion on things like this. Opinion on what is best/better will vary because it all comes down to personal taste.

[dvdx2]

Leon Retro has owned every type of SNES, and had articles published with his real world experiences on the topic including one article in EDGE magazine, back in the days his health was a little better, non of his ideas are from a five minute cross referencing the internet, they're actually real experiences, eye balls, and intelligence based, he's owned every type of custom picture quality mod over 15 different SNES of the best serial numbers, CRT TV & Monitors in the high end brackets, RGB modifications, over 40 different RGB custom modified SNES cables from different custom cable builders spanning all continents.
:

didnt realise Leon was such an expert!

when was his gaming biography commissioned? ;-)

[Zaki]

didnt realise Leon was such an expert!

It must have been difficult for him to legally change his surname to Retro

[dvdx2]

It must have been difficult for him to legally change his surname to Retro

at least his first name isnt Ronnie..........

just a bit of banter Leon , we really love you!

[Leon Retro]

didnt realise Leon was such an expert!

A friend of mine got carried away.

I was just trying to explain what I think of the difference between a standard & 1-Chip SNES. It all went a bit awry the more I tried to explain my point of view.

at least his first name isnt Ronnie..........

Now I have a YouTube pseudonym -- Ronnie Retro.