The Perfect Retro Mag Debate

[Sketcz]

Sure, it was butchered - as was the US/PAL NES version - but it was still released over there so my point still stands...I think.

Well, it was released over there, but I'd argue it wasn't really a "Western game" anymore. It became something wholly different.

But yeah, your point still stands, I just like giving you hassle to keep you on your toes.

[Strider]

My perfect retro magazine would celebrate 8/16/32/64bit console gaming first and foremost. It would have a dedicated arcade section that celebrates machines from 1980 onwards. It would mention computer titles too, but these would have to be genuine A-Grade titles that deserve respect. The magazine would have to be rose-tint free, and talk about the titles in the present-tense, with nostalgia playing no part in the games present day worth.

Overall the magazines mission-plan would be to trumpet the virtues of retro gaming, and give people every reason to take an interest in the scene!

But you see, you're really just making a magazine for you, and an even smaller niche market than what's already currently available.

While I'd love to see a mag like this on the shelves, it would nosedive in sales quicker than a sex starved nymphomaniac descending on a fifteen inch cock.

But hey, this is a perfect retro mag thread, so why the hell not. It doesn't have to be actually based in reality

Interestingly, before Live Publishing disappeared, the last few issues of Retro Gaming started to feature a heavy bent on some of the stuff you m entioned (there was certainly a lot more Japanese coverage for example).

Yet these were the worst selling issues of the magazine. Coincidence...

[Duddyroar]

When it comes to 16bit, I'm not a big fan of the computing side. The Amiga, and ST had some nice games, but the majority were poor even by the standards back then. I guess this side of retro will become the next-big-thing though, even though 16bit console gaming is vastly superior. The MD and SNES have hundreds of excellent games, which really show that the 16bit console scene delivered far more impressive playable games than the 16bit computer scene ever did

The games that worked best on the home computers were never, ever bettered on the consoles - take the sluggish SNES conversion of the classic Dungeon Master for example. Plus, 3D titles premiered on the 16-bit (hell, even the speccy and C64 had some 3D games) home computers before the consoles. Flight sims on the ST and Amiga were light years ahead of those found on the consoles, and the SNES needed an extra chip to produce the same kind of graphics that home computer owners had been seeing for years.

And let's not forget games like Speedball 2, Chaos Engine, Kick Off, Sensible Soccer, Midwinter, Defender of the Crown...many of which were successfully ported to consoles.

I think it's all down to personal preference - if you like Japanese-designed games, then home computers, with their western output, are going to leave you feeling cold. Personally I started out with the ST so I have many fond memories of the machine. And you cannot say that Dungeon Master is any less playable today. Like I said before, a crap game is a crap game - time has nothing to do with it.

While I understand what you're saying with regards to finding classic games that you've never seen before - I'm currently doing this with my PC Engine - nostalgia is a good thing in my eyes. I have fond memories of the games I grew up with and the real classics are still as fun to play today as they were all those years ago. I get a real buzz out of reading about games I love, and if you asked me to pick one console to keep it would be my Megadrive - not my PS2. That's not all down to the quality of the games - it's to do with how much I love the machine, which is largely based on nostalgia.

The way I see it, people like listening to old music and watching old films...is a film like Star Wars unwatchable because it has been surpassed in technological terms over the past 30 years? Of course it isn't. The same argument applies to games, so I simply cannot agree with you saying that 'most 8-bit games are unplayable'. You are confusing crap games with decent games, I feel.

[Leon Retro]

I don't think films and music can be compared to videogames. It's a comparison and argument I have heard many times, but I don't think it's fair.

I know where you're coming from though, and I must say that I agree playability is what counts, regardless of age! Of course there are 8bit computer games that are still worthy titles.

When it comes to 16bit computers I also agree that there are some decent classic titles. You listed a few: Dungeon Master, SpeedBall2, Sensible Soccer, , and quite a few others could be mentioned.

When you mention the 3D aspect of the 16bit computers, I agree that the Amiga and ST were better at running 3D games than the MD and SNES ( wihout chips ).

All the above is irrelevant to me though. I honestly feel no desire or need for 8bit and 16bit computer games. In my experience the majority of games for these machines are poorly designed and severely lacking in playability.

You say your love of the MD and it's games is largely based on nostalgia. I can understand that nostalgic emotions must play a part when you use the machine, but surely games still have to stand the test of time to be worth playing.

I already mentioned I'm not big on nostalgia. I have very high-standards with regards to the games I play, and if a game I used to enjoy now seems weak, I will accept the fact. I guess this is why sooo few old games really stand the test of time, but at least the number is in the hundreds, if not thousands.

The retro scene nearly always focuses on nostalgia though. It seems like a trap to me, but it's obvious it's a part of the retro-scene that dominates. I guess it's human nature at the end of the day, but that doesn't mean it's positive. I strongly believe the fixation on personal and mass nostalgia is damaging to the retro-scenes image and gives it a bad name.

It's all about the games, and in my personal opinion I would rather read about and play NES-MS-MD-PC-ENGINE-SNES-NEO GEO-ARCADE games over SPECTRUM-C64-AMSTRAD-BBC-ST-AMIGA games.

I am talking about my personal dream for my ' Perfect Retro Magazine ' .. I don't want to take sides and trumpet machines or games because of some personal fixation I happen to have. I want to celebrate games that are true bona-fide classics( regardless of format ). It's all about the genuinely brilliant games that stand the test of time. Games that will not only give me pleasure, but also appeal to gamers of all ages. Overall.. it should be about games that deserve continued praise and respect for still providing exciting experiences to all ( no nostalgia required! )

Cheers for the continued debate

[RetroRevival]

One mans meat is another mans poison or something My point is that what is regarded as a classic to you may not be to someone else. For example, Manic Miner. In the original Retro Gamer, the first few issues were riddled with Matthew Smith and his creation, and most of the RG fanbase at the time loved the mag for it. But you know what? I think that Manic Miner was and is 8 Bit drivel. The Mario games too, for me anyway, were crap. They might be "classics" but not in my mind. You want a great platform game? Try Psycho Fox on the SMS.

See we would all like to see our own form of mag, full of stuff that interests us, but the fact of the matter is that it would simply not be viable, not commercially anyway. As I said before in an issue of the fanzine I used to write, commercial mags have and agenda, and that agenda is to make sure that they sell copies of their title. Without the sales there is no magazine, so they have to print what people will buy. Not just what the odd few would be interested in, but what the majority would buy to read.

Yes a small section could (and ususally is) devoted to lesser known, or played games, the foreign scene, console games etc, but the majority of the mag has to be what the readership want to see.

The only way you will get what you want is to create your own mag, if not commercially then in a fanzine capacity.

Regards
Simon

[Ish]

I like to see a decent mix myself. My nostalgic feelings tend towards the home computers as thats what I grew up with and sometimes when its rainy outside and I'm having a bit of a downer its great to read about that era and boot up Elite on my trusty Beeb as it does give me that warm fuzzy feel

Essentially however I love a good game no matter its age, format, level of obscurity or country of origin Between retro forums, the GamesTM retro section and RetroGamer (in both old and new guises) I've been introduced to some gems I would have otherwise missed and picked up interesting history and nuggets of information on all manner of games.

I'd like RetroGamer to cover twice as much every month but otherwise I feel its a decent mix. Though I do wish when talking about Elite they'd stop showing a Spectrum screenshot. And that goes for GamesTM too. Repent sinners!

[Duddyroar]

I already mentioned I'm not big on nostalgia. I have very high-standards with regards to the games I play, and if a game I used to enjoy now seems weak, I will accept the fact. I guess this is why sooo few old games really stand the test of time, but at least the number is in the hundreds, if not thousands.

I can see what you mean but surely no one would get misty-eyed over a crap game they played twenty years ago? People get nostalgic over retro games because nine times out of ten they're excellent titles, and are still playable today! I don't see how that is damaging, TBH.

[MikeRox]

actually, I've had it happen to me quite a few times had fond memories of an old game I used to love only to play it recently and find it nowhere near as good as I remembered. Alot of them games were from when I was really young though so prolly more down to not knowing any better than anything else.

[Wil]

Generally, nostalgia is all about how old you are. The older you get, the more it's nice to look back. Especially when teh kids are playing their awful modern music.

All you young 'ens, just you wait

[Leon Retro]

Edge and Retro Gamer have printed readers Top50/100 game lists. It looks to me like gamers do share a common fondness for the same games.

These lists shouldn't be about the Top10 title being the greatest games ever made. I see the lists as recognition of 100 games that people appreciate, and prove that gamers share a common affection for the same great games.

If someone trumpets Hungry Horace as their favourite retro game, should we not respect their choice, but ultimately disregard it in favour of highlighting truely deserving A-Grade retro titles.

I think it does old films, music and games a disservice when people say nostalgia is 90% why people still take interest in them. Imo this is a very unfair and short-sighted outlook.

In the mid 90's I watched ' The Warriors ' .. This film is from an era I didn't experience, and it's drenched in 70's atmosphere, but I appreciated everything about it, and now regard it as one of my favourite films.

6months ago I was looking for some new Heavy Metal cd's at Amazon, when I came across AC/DC. This is a group I had heard of, but never listened to. The reviews were positive, so I bought a few cd's, and now I'm a major fan.

Only small minded people would disregard something due to age. Open minded people know that time doesn't diminish the quality of true brillliance.


I am very sober minded when it comes to retro games. If I loaded a Spectrum game and it really did deliver a quality experience, I would be happy to find another great game to play. Sadly.. I am yet to find an 8bit computer game that appeals to me in anyway. 16bit computer games on the whole are the same. They fail to match the quality and gameplay of their console counterparts.


After reading through this thread, it's clear that even people here feel retro is a largely nostalgic pursuit. Duddy mentioned that he couldn't fathom why anyone would play a poor game simply because of nostalgia? Maybe they don't actually play the games, but they sure do want to talk and read about them in Retro Magazines.

To conclude, I must say that my assertation that Retro Gaming is largely based on nostalgia, seems true! There is no doubt about it. The British retro gaming scene is focused on childhood memories rather than reality. I am not judging these people though, they are free to pursue their nostalgic obsessions as much as they like, I accept their attitudes!

As Muse mentioned, he and others may have grown-up using 8bit computers, but that is because it's all they had available to them. As life progressed, people went on to 16bit computing, which on the whole most people found to be better. Then the console scene impacted on the gaming map, and a massive amount of gamers moved over to the MD & SNES. These consoles were seen to offer vastly superior gaming experiences, and because they mostly did deliver much better quality gameplay and visuals, the computer side of old shrunk away.

I guess all Spectrum, C64 and Amstrad owners dreamed of having arcade quality in the home. Why is this? It's because the arcade games did deliver better visuals, sound and in many cases fun!

When you take in to account the popularity of consoles like the NES, MS , MD, SNES and eventually the PS etc.. You will see for certain that the retro-scenes fixation on 8bit computing and computing in general is based purely on nostalgia. These people want to mull over old memories, more than actually play great games.

As RR said, if I want a magazine suited to people like me, one that is free from nostalgia and really delivers a level-headed celebration of truely deserving ' still relevant' games, I will have to make it myself!

[Wil]

I think for most people of a certain age it is very hard to separate the nostalgia from this sort of thing. For many it was a time when they had no responsibilities, no mortage/student loan to repay and umpteen weeks holiday a year with nothing better to do than muck about. Probably a far different situation to what they're in now.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't live their whole lives in the past and there's nothing wrong with reading Retro Gamer and loving a crap game if it brings back a nice memory (even if it was having a laugh at how crap it was!).

I'm sure when you're 40-50 and having a moan at your kids for the nonsense they're currently playing you just might accidently find yourself recounting tales of good times past. It's only natural. At least you'll be able to back up your nostalgia with truly good games, though

[Mayhem]

When you take in to account the popularity of consoles like the NES, MS , MD, SNES and eventually the PS etc.. You will see for certain that the retro-scenes fixation on 8bit computing and computing in general is based purely on nostalgia. These people want to mull over old memories, more than actually play great games.

Popular in general yes, but not at the time in the UK. Certainly not as much as computers were. And as I stated before, I put this simply down to one of cost. ?10 for an 8-bit game vs ?20 for a 16-bit game vs ?40 for a console game. And the computer games could be copied as well. No contest.

MD and SNES had followings here, but were still somewhat in the shadow of the ST and Amiga. Only when computers started to die off and the PS1 launched did console gaming truly take off in a big way in the UK.

[SharkSkin-Man]

MD and SNES had followings here, but were still somewhat in the shadow of the ST and Amiga. Only when computers started to die off and the PS1 launched did console gaming truly take off in a big way in the UK.

At my school in the '90s I reckon the ratio of console kids to computer kids was at least 3:1. Only the really geeky/sad kids played computers

[Strider]

At my school in the '90s I reckon the ratio of console kids to computer kids was at least 3:1. Only the really geeky/sad kids played computers

I wish I was at school in the 90s

[SharkSkin-Man]

I wish I was at school right now. You totally don't appreciate young girls in short kilts until it's far too late.