Battle of the Ports

[Nu-Eclipse]

I love a lot of arcade fighting sidescrollers, but even most of my favourites are guilty of becoming unfair coin munchers with a harsh and immediate difficulty spike once you get past a certain point, usually around the time the levels are along the lines of "box storage facility" or "warehouse corridor".

I do get what you're trying to say, but every coin-op I mentioned definitely doesn't have formulaic stages. Captain Commando, Battle Circuit, Knights of the Round, AvP definitely don't have "box storage facility " or "warehouse corridor stages".

If anything, SoR 2 has stages that are formulaic and trying too hard to rip-off its arcade equivalents.

I also acknowledge that coin-op scrollers of that age could be tough. It was possible to master them though, and they didn't feel unfair IMO. SoR 4 just feels mega-cheap with the way that enemies can just decide to switch their invincibility frames on whenever they feel like it. Compared to that, I'd much rather the old school coin-op scroller "git gud" mentality.

[Asura]

I'm genuinely curious as to why the Capcom and Konami beat 'em-ups are rated so much higher than SoR2 by so many people? I like Final Fight for the first couple of stages due to the graphics and soundtrack but after that I just lose interest. As for the comic book inspired games that Capcom made, they've never interested me at all.

To focus on Final Fight specifically, as it's one of the easiest to compare to SoR; I never used to understand it either, because my experience of FF back-in-the-day was on the Amiga, as I didn't own a SNES or Mega-CD, and the Amiga version, while playable enough, is only a rough facsimile and the devil's in the details with this stuff.

Final Fight is a fantastic arcade game, insofar as that the game's only good if you're on limited credits, perhaps 1 credit, and you're really going to try and get as far as possible (or trying for a high score). Played with infinite credits, I'd argue it's quite dull - but that's not a criticism; many arcade games are.

The controls on it are extremely tight and the timings for everything; the moves, the animations, the enemy attack cadence - all of these are extremely well designed and tuned (I believe this is why these elements of the Streets of Rage games are far better than the many genuinely crap scrolling fighters of the era, because it's clear that they tried to copy FF's homework).

I think part of it, in Final Fight's case, is about breaking something down to its core elements. I would argue that Final Fight is a near-perfect scrolling fighter because it's lean. Axel in SoR2 has a move where you can hold the attack button and release it; he does a double-sidekick. Many people don't even know this move exists. There's no in-game situation where you need to use it. It's just a fun, stylish thing. But that means SoR2 is fundamentally less lean than Final Fight. Does that mean its worse? You could debate that all day.

I didn't appreciate how well-made FF was when I was younger, because I thought FF's bosses were cheap - and I think most people felt that at first - but you can 1-credit it if you know how. Watching people on YouTube, it's a game that can be mastered with a great deal of practice; whereas I can rinse Streets of Rage 2 pretty well with a limited number of credits from a standing-start. That's not just because it's easier; you can crank up the difficulty on SoR2 but that doesn't make the game more entertaining.

On a related note, I love Streets of Rage 2. I rinse it a couple of times a year. I think, when seen as a whole package, it's a fantastic game, even better in co-op, and it's synonymous with my subjective experience of the 16-bit era (I actually didn't get along with 4 all that much either but let's not dwell on that). I don't always understand why some people suggest it's terrible, when I think it's a really well-made, extremely playable game - and offers a great slice of what the Megadrive stood for at the time in terms of visuals, artstyle, sound.

But I can understand why some people see the franchise as a pale imitation of FF, even if I can never quite see it in those terms.

Sword of Sodan feels like it was designed to look great in static screenshots in magazines and on the packaging, but just falls apart when you see it moving with its abysmal frame rate. Sadly that was common with the flashier Amiga games of the ‘80s…

I mean, this could sum up nearly every home computer port of the 80s and 90s, judging from [MENTION=1524]Yakumo[/MENTION]'s work.

[samanosuke]

What a can of worms I have opened! Well in spite of it's popularity, it will always have its detractors.

Asura summed up most of my feelings in his inimitably succinct way so not much I can add to that other than the reason why I hold it in such high regard is down to how much enjoyment I get playing through it from start to finish, and even after all these years I never get bored of it. A large aspect is down to the wide range of moves and different ways to juggle and dispatch enemies, and how each of the four characters offer a completely unique experience which adds to the limitless replayability.

Not being funny, but I can pose the exact same questions about SoR2. I don't even think it's the best Beat-em-up that Sega have done. What about it is so special? Again, I don't think anybody cares about it or the franchise in general if Yuzo Koshiro doesn't do the music.

Most of the great 80s/90s coin-op scrollers are superior to SoR2 in terms of graphics and gameplay IMO - things that still hold up today. A lot of them are difficult but never feel super-cheap and unfair the way SoR games (especially 4) do.

Each to their own for sure, but gimme Knights of The Round, Captain Commando, Battle Circuit, TMNT Arcade, Turtles In Time, Final Fight, The Simpsons, Alien Storm, Golden Axe, Alien vs. Predator ahead of any of the SoR games anyday.

Each to their own and that but a couple of points I feel I must pick up on...

Regarding the Yuzo Koshiro sountrack, all I can say is that if your aunt had a penis then she'd be your uncle (not sure how well this saying holds up in today's genderfluid society but you get my gist). Fact is it does have one of the best soundtracks to any game, but rather than argue it makes an average game considered to be a good one, I'd say it completes the package to make an amazing game into a perfect one. I wonder what your thoughts would be on Rez if it had a Des O'Connor tunes playing on each level? Music does not make a game but it can certainly enhance it.

Finally I could not disagree more on the list of supposedly "better" beat 'em ups. I mean come on, the Konami games are as deep as a puddle. Sure, playing Turtles with three mates in an arcade was fun as hell back in the day, but having button-mashed my way through it in more recent times in MAME and without mates it can be a very repetitive and - dare I say it - boring experience.

Of the list you provided only Final Fight rivals SoR2 for much of the reasons Asura highlighted. The way you have to learn the enemy positions, crowd control, boss strategy and suchlike to have any chance of playing it properly is little short of perfection in terms of game design. This is where it scores a big win over SoR2 in my opinion, which by contrast is far too forgiving with health drops and extra lives to really put pressure on the player to avoid getting caught up in a barrage of attacks. Increasing the difficulty only seems to turn enemies into hit sponges and increases the number of them to the point of player fatigue.

Having said this, Final Fight features only three characters, two of whom play very similarly, has less interesting levels, far fewer moves (and subsequently fewer play styles), an inferior soundtrack (as great as it might be in its own right) and worse graphics. It does not bring me the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment playing through it which is what gives SoR2 the edge to me.

I think if one were to take SoR2 and apply the enemy AI and punishing difficulty of Final Fight, one would have the perfect beat 'em up.

[Nu-Eclipse]

*snip*

Sorry my guy, so much of that is TL;DR. Incorrect IMO, of course, but also TL;DR. Won't even get into your deeply misguided/flawed gender comparisons...not sure what the phuk you're trying to do there!

If all of the coin-op classics I mentioned are shallow in your eyes, then I hate to break it to you but SOR2 isn't any deeper in the slightest, and for me that's worse because it tries to ape those arcade games down to the letter while hiding that with a style-over-substance veneer. Yes, the SOR trilogy would never get the props it does if Koshiro-san didn't do the music. There's a reason his name is credited on every title screen from SoR to SoR3.

For example, go back and play Knights of the Round and look at how it uses a brilliant timed block and counter-attack mechanism to allow for more gameplay scope and masterful no-hit runs. Sorry, that's more deeper than anything SoR2 provides just because it might look and sound a bit nicer compared to its console contemporaries. I stand by what I said to that effect - almost every scroller Capcom made is superior to SoR2 IMO. Not even close.

Yes, FF has aged. Yes, FF is available and accessible everywhere. It's still the better scroller though.

[Wools]

I'm genuinely curious as to why the Capcom and Konami beat 'em-ups are rated so much higher than SoR2 by so many people? I like Final Fight for the first couple of stages due to the graphics and soundtrack but after that I just lose interest. As for the comic book inspired games that Capcom made, they've never interested me at all.

I've always felt the same as you, so I've got your back!

I like most of the Arcade / 16-bit scrolling bet 'em ups but Streets of Rage really refined and polished each area, it's the classic in my eyes. Great control, fantastic premise and setting, the graphics still look stunning and the music is iconic.

[samanosuke]

If all of the coin-op classics I mentioned are shallow in your eyes, then I hate to break it to you but SOR2 isn't any deeper in the slightest, and for me that's worse because it tries to ape those arcade games down to the letter while hiding that with a style-over-substance veneer. Yes, the SOR trilogy would never get the props it does if Koshiro-san didn't do the music. There's a reason his name is credited on every title screen from SoR to SoR3.

Sorry, I didn’t make it clear; I didn’t mean all the games on your list lack depth, it was the inclusion of the Konami titles which I felt strongly against. Fun as they may be, they are button mashers through and through. And without the Simpsons/Turtles license I’d even go so far as to say they are not all that.

You find those titles deeper and more engaging than SoR2, fine. I just can’t understand how/why.

[Yakumo]

This week on Battle of the Ports

[Yakumo]

A game that appeared on practically every bootleg Famiclone game cartridge. This is Circus Charlie from Konami on this week's Battle of the Ports.

[Yakumo]

The game that was to be Gauntlet in 3D on this week's Battle of the Ports.

[Yakumo]

An SNK Classic and the worlds first game with singing on this week's Battle of the Ports

[Yakumo]

An old computer game "Classic" that actual got a NES port and an Amiga knock off.

[DeathAdder]

Blimey, you enjoyed the game more than I did.

In the 80s this was the only game on my parents computer. I played it to death.

Hate that it takes moves away from you. The roundhouse kick was my move of choice. I was lost without it.

[Yakumo]

Blimey, you enjoyed the game more than I did.

In the 80s this was the only game on my parents computer. I played it to death.

Hate that it takes moves away from you. The roundhouse kick was my move of choice. I was lost without it.

Yeah, the fact moves are replaced with different moves kind of sucks. The round house kick was easily the best move.

[Yakumo]

Back to classic Konami with Gradius II, on this week's Battle of the Ports.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou / Vulcan Venture is my favourite Gradius game.

Got a big soft spot for the PCE Super CD-ROM² port as it was actually the first version of the game that I ever played, even before the coin-op. Yes, the reduced resolution means that it isn't exactly 1:1 arcade-perfect but it's damn close and all of the music on the CD is Redbook Audio so you basically have the soundtrack ready to play anytime you want - brilliant!