Retro|Spective 026: Samurai Shodown

[Neon Ignition]

I can appreciate the sense that SS and KOF can feel wooden. It's an issue I had early on with the games (and still have with NeverRealms fighters) but I acclimatised eventually and do enjoy both series now. Ironically, I've never gelled with the Last Blade series, I could do with spending more time with it at some point but it felt bland compared to the SS series, I had a similar relationship with Garou/Fatal Fury, Garou played well it was just kind of bleh to look at.

[BigDeadFreak]

KoF has a similar issue to the Tekken/Virtua Fighter debate, in that I consider KoF to be a master's game, but similar to VF, a lot of the fun is derived from having other people to whom you can compare yourself.

I always used to feel like this about KoF but the more time I've spent with it the less sure I am. I think Street Fighter 2 feels less technical than KoF partly because we've all spent far more time with it and feel more comfortable with it's intricacies. Also, it has a looser, more fluid feel to it whereas KoF feels a bit rigid and awkward.

The guy who developed the first Street Fighter went on to make most of the fighters for SNK. You can certainly feel the rigidity of the original SF in games like Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury and The King of Fighters. I think this makes it seem like the games are a bit more technical than they actually are, almost as if 'I must be doing something wrong because if I was any good it would feel as natural as Street Fighter'.

I'm not saying KoF is not more technical than SF (partly it's an unfair comparison as SF came out a few yeas before the first KoF. Compare KoF '94 to II' Turbo from 1992 and the Capcom game seems light years ahead). However, I think most of us probably play SF on a pretty basic level and are happy doing so (myself included). KoF, on the other hand, has a reputation of being the master's game which means a lot of people try to play it on a more complex level, find that too difficult and then give up.

[Asura]

It's an issue I had early on with the games (and still have with NeverRealms fighters)

I just can't accept the idea that those end up at Evo and other games don't. I get that they're crowd-pleasers but to me, Mortal Kombat just just a joke that stopped being funny by 1998. I love the original and II as daft diversions, I think they're wonderful videogames, but I can never understand the desire to have the latest ones taken seriously as competitive fighters. Every aspect of how they play just feels wrong to me.

[Neon Ignition]

The way the fighters feel in their games makes sense if you imagine a giant rod has been inserted up the characters back passage They've improved over time but nowhere near the level you'd expect after 20 years. I think they feel that's part of the DNA but really it's a bad hangover element.

If SNK revives Shodown in 3D as per the most recent KOF I'd be interested to see how that affects the feel of the gameplay compared to the other 6 games

[Asura]

If SNK revives Shodown in 3D as per the most recent KOF I'd be interested to see how that affects the feel of the gameplay compared to the other 6 games

This will really nark people but I believe Showdown would best be revived (or a new title be made) in the vein of Power Stone. It would be a great spinoff.

[dataDave]

I always used to feel like this about KoF but the more time I've spent with it the less sure I am. I think Street Fighter 2 feels less technical than KoF partly because we've all spent far more time with it and feel more comfortable with it's intricacies. Also, it has a looser, more fluid feel to it whereas KoF feels a bit rigid and awkward.

The guy who developed the first Street Fighter went on to make most of the fighters for SNK. You can certainly feel the rigidity of the original SF in games like Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury and The King of Fighters. I think this makes it seem like the games are a bit more technical than they actually are, almost as if 'I must be doing something wrong because if I was any good it would feel as natural as Street Fighter'.

I'm not saying KoF is not more technical than SF (partly it's an unfair comparison as SF came out a few yeas before the first KoF. Compare KoF '94 to II' Turbo from 1992 and the Capcom game seems light years ahead). However, I think most of us probably play SF on a pretty basic level and are happy doing so (myself included). KoF, on the other hand, has a reputation of being the master's game which means a lot of people try to play it on a more complex level, find that too difficult and then give up.

SF has a much lower entry-level for fun play, that's for sure. However both are pretty nuts when it gets to the higher levels. I retired from 2D fighting games shortly after my arrival in Singapore when getting better at them turned into a science study. Memorizing sheet after sheet of frame data is not my idea of fun, it didn't really feel like I was progressing even after trying anyway. I don't even play that much when I emulate today, I get a 'sickly' feeling after a short while. It's putting me off of getting another AES, actually.

The NGPC games are another kettle of fish. They really are mounds of fun. I might keep my eye on that new Gal Fighters or whatever it is - it looks like something I won't be compelled to take so seriously.

Anyway; SamSho II for me, followed by IV. SamSho II is in the holy trinity of Neo games. That, FFS and KoF'98 are all you'll ever really need.

[BigDeadFreak]

That sounds pretty intense, I'm not surprised it stopped being fun.

You prefer FFS to the Real Bout games? How come? I always felt that Real Bout was a bit more open ended when it came to combos than Real Bout Special but RBS has such great graphics and sound track so I've opted for that. I don't think I've ever played FFS though.

[BigDeadFreak]

Ironically, I've never gelled with the Last Blade series, I could do with spending more time with it at some point but it felt bland compared to the SS series, I had a similar relationship with Garou/Fatal Fury, Garou played well it was just kind of bleh to look at.

I feel the same about Garou and Last Blade. I know they're supposed to be amazing games but they just seem a bit too po-faced and serious.

[Neon Ignition]

I don't know if both started as attempts to refresh the SS and FF series appeals or whether they didn't get enough sequels to fully establish their own identities in the same way SS1 and KOF94 don't carry as much flair as later entries but yep, both are way lower on my lists than most entries in the bigger series

[Asura]

I don't know if both started as attempts to refresh the SS and FF series appeals or whether they didn't get enough sequels to fully establish their own identities in the same way SS1 and KOF94 don't carry as much flair as later entries but yep, both are way lower on my lists than most entries in the bigger series

For some reason, I feel Samurai Shodown loses a lot in 3D. Like, I'm not the biggest fan of 3D KoF but I feel SNK did a decent job of it - but SS seems different. I think a good 3D one would have to work in the manner of Arc System Works' new stuff.

[buster_broon]

This was my first ever neo geo game, bought the English version from dream machines 2 on its release date and I'm sure it cost me £125 new, when I had a neo geo I ended up buying all the Sam spirits games from new

I was serving on HMS Newcastle in 1993 and deployed to the Falklands in theAugust and this arrived on our first stop in Gibraltar, the mess on board had a mega drive and my neo geo, on our first day alongside one of my mess mates had went ashore and bought mortal Kombat on the mega drive, it was class seeing everything think the mega drive was the future of graphics and when Sam sho was put on everybody could not believe I had an arcade machine in the mess, good times hahaha, the first time people saw earthquake and the scaling in and out of the screen they were amazed also Charlotte's level art is quite incredible back in the day

The game itself is quite unforgiving, not as bad as art of fighting 2 or fatal fury special, but it's certainly doable and amakusa is do-able, also loved the story behind it, ex capcom employees created it and just thought animals, weapons and stuff that can get destroyed was way before its time, also liked the fatalities even if they were random

Favourite character's are Jubei and wan fu

Shin Sam spirits is also fantastic and the roster of characters including the new ones are great but actually loved wan fu more

[buster_broon]

Just a query what do you mean by the recently introduced camera zoom?

Art of fighting had it and that was out a year before, so even though every game didn't use it I reckon it was available when the machine launched in 1990

[dataDave]

£125 wasn't that bad. I remember people paying more for Super Mario World and SFII on import.

I could have easily survived with an AES as a kid. My mum was worried I'd get sick of only one or two games a year. She was toying with the idea however.

[Neon Ignition]

Yup, the hardware had the feature but Art of Fighting pretty much introduced it in 92 with SS following the next year and I think was the next game too

[Neon Ignition]

Time for the clue for thread twenty seven:

Kaneshiro