Borders isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It's literally the same thing as The Order: 1886. Development decision.
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As much as i hated having to do pal gaming at the time it was all i could afford as i wasnt a spoilt little rich kid who had mummy & daddy pay for everything. But even as far back as the nes while i wasn't aware of the technical stuff like speeds & borders back then i was aware that there were a lot of games i was not getting like megaman. While i was playing megaman 2 i found out that the usa was already upto 4 and in japan they were already on mario 3 but back then importing was a hell of a lot harder, all the way upto n64 i was stuck playing peasant pal versions, i kind of know what tetsuo means it does leave the games a bit tainted when you know that you are playing a inferior piss poor version with censoring, poor optimization and jank boxart and the most insulting it cost more too. I have no nostalgia at all for playing those uk versions its the reason that once i could afford to i jumped regions & never looked back, ditched my uk stuff and upgraded them to import versions.
Nowdays its a bit better, the switch is the first time in a loooong time i have bought uk nintendo hardware due to it been totally region free.
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Originally posted by speedlolita View PostBorders isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It's literally the same thing as The Order: 1886. Development decision.
( An early Amiga game that runs full screen in PAL )
Well, I did mention that all sorts of genres, even simple point & click games suffer from the huge borders problem. So that's what suggests to me that it's not necessarily about boosting performance.
With something like a PAL SNES or Mega Drive, at least you can see the borders are uniform across games because of the move from NTSC to PAL. That was easy to understand.
The massive borders spoiling lots of Amiga games is just ridiculous. You could accept small borders if the developer said it boosted performance for an action game, but the way borders were normal across all sorts of Amiga games makes me think it was primarily down to devs not making sure their games looked good on PAL displays.
At least some devs, even early on in the Amiga's life, delivered full screen games for PAL users. Pac-Mania is a glorious example of this.Last edited by Leon Retro; 06-07-2018, 09:09.
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never really thought much about non uk regions for computer stuff as it was so ingrained back in the day i just assumed it was only ever for the uk. Well certainly for the spectrum as thats the only one i had, i only experienced playing amiga via friends who had one but i do have fond memories of the computer stuff. Weird that consoles are the exact opposite but with computer stuff i didnt mind pal region gaming for that at all, a weird double standard i have but as far as im aware on computer stuff we were not denied games based on region. Never saw mag articles for import speccy games lolLast edited by importaku; 06-07-2018, 09:21.
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Originally posted by importaku View Postat the time it was all i could affordOriginally posted by importaku View Postand the most insulting it cost more too.
Importing was cheaper until the release of the Super Famicom. A Japanese Mega Drive was about £100 less than a PAL one, and the games were way cheaper. Japanese DJ Boy was £15 brand new for example.
The whole reason I got into importing was because of the cheaper cost over domestic stuff.Last edited by J0e Musashi; 06-07-2018, 09:57.Kept you waiting, huh?
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The usual reason for borders on Amiga games is fairly obvious I think:
NTSC Amigas had 200 vertical lines of resolution, PAL ones 256. So, an NTSC machine has ~ 1/5th less vertical resolution. Performance considerations aside developers had 2 choices, make two versions of the game, one for each resolution or code for the lowest resolution once and have 1/5th of the screen as a border on PAL machines :-(
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Sorry i was referring to different time periods of my importing exploits, the snes period i was stuck with uk as importing super fami games was way too expensive but. By the n64 era uk games were way more expensive than their japanese releases, i was lucky and found a cool place online that used to sell japanese pokemon cards but they also allowed me to buy japanese n64 stuff from them i got them a hell of a lot cheaper than paying uk prices as i was importing direct and no longer relying on uk import shops, Paying a little over japanese retail which was a lot cheaper than uk retail and a hell of a lot cheaper than the usual import £70+ for a game prices. Got stuff like getting dk64 with the expansion pack for £40. It was around n64 era i started ditching my old snes stuff and upgrading the games as by then the used prices of super fami games had come way down.Last edited by importaku; 06-07-2018, 11:01.
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Originally posted by Brad View PostThe usual reason for borders on Amiga games is fairly obvious I think:
NTSC Amigas had 200 vertical lines of resolution, PAL ones 256. So, an NTSC machine has ~ 1/5th less vertical resolution. Performance considerations aside developers had 2 choices, make two versions of the game, one for each resolution or code for the lowest resolution once and have 1/5th of the screen as a border on PAL machines :-(
I'm actually wondering now if it's due to ST ports. It's well known how common they are, and from what I can see online, the PAL ST only has 200 vertical lines. It also makes more sense financially for developers to port between PAL ST and Amiga than to be concerned about the tiny American Amiga market (which was clearly not a concern on 8 bits as hardly any PAL C64 software works on an NTSC machine without fixing).
I think also that maybe the borders look worse due to the exact 1:1 pixel ratios of modern screens. If you look at the screenshots of Lotus 2 from CU Amiga http://amr.abime.net/amr_popup_pictu...76.jpg&c=52286 they're nowhere near as squashed as those on the previous page.
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Another issue I have with 50 Hz is just the overall image quality. Yes PAL is technically higher resolution but a moot point in not used, but is the solidity of the image I don't like. Things just feel more solid at 60hz, even with a progressive 240p image. It's even worse when you move into interlaced visuals as everything feels much more hollow and the flickering is much worse.
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Originally posted by ZipZap View Post
I think also that maybe the borders look worse due to the exact 1:1 pixel ratios of modern screens. If you look at the screenshots of Lotus 2 from CU Amiga http://amr.abime.net/amr_popup_pictu...76.jpg&c=52286 they're nowhere near as squashed as those on the previous page.
The other screenshot was from a video on YouTube. I think the one above is a better representation of the type of borders you tend to get with PAL Amiga games.
I can only speculate as to why this was the case. It still annoys me when I go back to the Amiga, because huge borders look terrible to my eyes. At least some of the best Amiga games are full screen.
Also, if the borders were evenly put at the top and bottom, it would have looked better than just a huge black space beneath the game.Last edited by Leon Retro; 06-07-2018, 11:37.
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Another issue I have with 50 Hz is just the overall image quality. Yes PAL is technically higher resolution but a moot point in not used, but is the solidity of the image I don't like. Things just feel more solid at 60hz, even with a progressive 240p image. It's even worse when you move into interlaced visuals as everything feels much more hollow and the flickering is much worse.
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Originally posted by Brad View PostThe usual reason for borders on Amiga games is fairly obvious I think:
NTSC Amigas had 200 vertical lines of resolution, PAL ones 256. So, an NTSC machine has ~ 1/5th less vertical resolution. Performance considerations aside developers had 2 choices, make two versions of the game, one for each resolution or code for the lowest resolution once and have 1/5th of the screen as a border on PAL machines :-(
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Originally posted by ZipZap View Post
I'm actually wondering now if it's due to ST ports.
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So it looks like an Amiga game ported from the ST can cause the border problem. Maybe all Amiga games with huge borders were designed on the ST? It could be the case.
There are probably other reasons why some Amiga games have varying degrees of borders to spoil things. It's just something that shouldn't have happened, because it looks terrible. Small borders evenly put at the top and bottom would have been one thing, but a huge border below the image is ridiculously bad.
Originally posted by Asura View PostI always felt the Amiga was a British thing for no reason whatsoever.
It's such a shame that so many Amiga games were lazy ST ports. Amiga games can really shine when they were designed for the host system and run full screen.
Originally posted by importaku View PostBeen able to patch games to remove the borders and make it fullscreen.Last edited by Leon Retro; 06-07-2018, 12:22.
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