The Star Wars Cinematic Universe

[Arashikage]

It might be a huge universe but it is creatively stifled when the entire thing is centred around wars in space. Conflict seems to be integral to the whole thing, and a civil war conflict at that. The sequel trilogy was creatively bankrupt because they treaded the same ground that the OT covered. At least in the Expanded Universe the galaxy came together and fought an external threat in the Yuuzhan Vong, similar conflict tropes but a different angle at the very least.

Unfortunately Disney still seem to be walking down the same path that came over 40 years ago, a galaxy with infinite possibilities where nothing changes.

[cutmymilk]

Maybe Star Trek is a better name after all.

[Neon Ignition]

https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/star-wars-obi-wan-kenobi-series-disney-plus-footage-description-sizzle-darth-vader-rematch/

A description of the Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi teaser shown

[Dogg Thang]

It’s kind of nuts we don’t have a Mandalorian thread. Just putting a few thoughts down here but serious spoilers for the last episode of season 2 below so don’t read if you haven’t watched it yet.

First thing is not a spoiler though - the thing I have adored with The Mandalorian most of all is that it’s a low stress watch. It’s not something that has a lot of build or story threads. It reminds me of shows from the 80s like A-Team and Knight Rider. Someone needs help, he helps them and moves on. It’s an easy self-contained watch for the most part. I love that. For me TV had got almost too sophisticated - it needed to for a bit but the time was right for a simpler show.

Now the spoilers -

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For me, the show was always at its best when it was its own thing. For the most part, the show walked a perfect line in that regard, being very clearly Star Wars in setting and all looked familiar and yet it was its own story, separate from other Star Wars stuff. For me, that was perfect. Two times it veered off that path in season 2 were crowd-pleasers but left me with mixed feelings. The first was the episode featuring a Jedi I have no real connection with and it seemed weird to give her time asking where a guy is who has no bearing on the story at hand. I know who Thrawn is but I felt a real disconnect there because it wasn’t this story.

The end of season 2 was pretty epic. That was superb and felt really good. And yet I had definite mixed feelings. For one thing, it was total deus ex machina, with a character who hadn’t even been mentioned in this entire series turning up and getting the characters out of an impossible situation. In the context of the show itself, he was kind of meaningless. Like a lot of Rise of Skywalker (and Star Trek Into Darkness before it), it has relevance to movie viewers rather than any actual characters involved. And it removed any agency from the main characters. It also pretty much repeated the crowd-pleasing ending to Rogue One, only with a different character. And in the world of Star Wars, repeated yet again one of the more hideous aspects of the Jedi - just taking kids. It’s a thing they do. They’ll come along and steal your kids.

So it was a weird one for me. Very cool and yet kind of uncomfortable at the same time. I feel it may have done the series itself a bit of a disservice to give that fan service moment of cool.

Anyway, it was still pretty great and I absolutely love the series.

[CMcK]

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I felt that last nights Mandalorian fell into the same trap as the prequels by sticking some Skywalker stuff. It was a real fan service moment but I must admit I thought initially it was going to Kyle thingy from those old games or something. And R2D2s arrival kind of spoiled the whole scene with Mando and Grogu which is arguably the pay off for his story arc throughout this series.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, I can't disagree with that.

[teddymeow]

Watched the LEGO Star Wars Christmas thing on Disney+ this morning.

Absolute ****!! Voices all wrong, unfunny jokes, just bland as bread sauce.

[Asura]

Personally I've loved The Mandalorian, altogether. It's my favourite bit of TV/movie Star Wars content after the original trilogy, if I'm honest.

A few reasons for that. Firstly, it's kinda episodic as @Dogg Thang says; i.e. it's not a Game of Thrones where you'll need to rewatch the prior season before each new one to make sure you don't lose any plot threads. It's simple, uncomplicated fun in the manner of something like Xena: Warrior Princess, but for a new generation. We've been loading it up every Friday night after work (in a double-bill with the new series of Discovery) and I'm going to miss doing that.

It's in part inspired by Lone Wolf & Cub, which I used to love, and I see a lot of that in the show.

But also, and this might be divisive - it feels like Star Wars to me, whereas the other trilogies kinda never did - and I was young enough to be in the target demo for the prequels. Mando absolutely nails the aesthetic, and I think because it's to a budget (a very high TV budget, but much more limiting than a movie) they've had to throttle their ambitions and work within creative constraints. The still scenes are genuinely still, and have time to breathe, the action scenes are a bit limited, but, and I'm no expert on direction so apologies if this is bollocks, but it's all done in a way that feels like the original three movies much more. Even everything from the costumes to the sets to the ships, they're so consistent with the original trilogy's style and designs even though it introduces tons of new elements.

I'm not even quite sure what it is. I just know that I always felt, seeing R2-D2 in the prequel trilogy on the Nabooan ship, like R2 was out-of-place, like as if a character from a Roman epic walked onto Lord of the Rings. But any character from The Mandalorian could walk onto the set of The Empire Strikes Back and you wouldn't bat an eye. Like when they introduce a new Stormtrooper design, it works, whereas the battle droids in the prequels never felt as compelling. The ships in the prequels never felt quite there (with a few exceptions).

This is partially affected by how Disney, on the new trilogy, had a directive to change everything; I understand this is to do with licensing - so the Rebellion became the Resistance with new ship designs, new logos - not just because of the story, but because "The Resistance" is a new brand that Disney can fully lay claim to, the designs are all totally theirs, etc. So in their case they made a subtle break with practically everything (though I don't want to trash them; I think Disney's people did a great job compared to the prequel movies in this regard).

As for the latest episode... (spoilers for Mandalorian S2 follow)

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I agree with something said above - I half-expected it to be someone left-field, like Kyle Katarn, and it was a massive deus ex machina. It wasn't entirely pulled out of nowhere; Tano said "another Jedi might hear him" earlier and we know Luke is powerful and around at this time period, but it wasn't quite "earned" as a twist. It was just something they did to try and break Twitter, and I mean, it succeeded. All I know is that I was grinning from a very early point when the character turned and you could, for an instant, see that he had one hand bare and one hand gloved, and at that point I was pretty sure it was going to be Luke.

I don't mind all that much as long as it's just bits like that. I'd hate it if, for example, they try and make Luke into a major, ongoing character, because he'd either utterly dominate the narrative or feel kinda wasted, as the character is such a huge presence. They should treat him like Seijuro Hiko in Kenshin, i.e. at the fringe, but not really involved.

Similarly I don't mind when they brush with elements of other parts of the franchise. I just don't ever want that to dictate the story... And I do worry that with its surprising success (shocker, I know, "make Star Wars that looks and feels like Star Wars", who would've thought) I'm concerned Disney's "eye of Sauron" is going to swivel in their direction and burn the show into oblivion while trying to over-exploit the idea.

I was also happy that the arc of "the child" has kinda ended now, and it looks as though the series will be composed of set, limited arcs, as opposed to one long, ongoing story, because there's always a chance the show will be cancelled someday and the story will be left unresolved.

But yeah, I'm ready for S3 and the other spinoffs.

On a related note, it's kinda interesting that Star Trek Discovery on the same day had...

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... a reveal that a certain character was The Guardian of Forever, something I suspected last week, and it was nice to get that payoff.

But I didn't see that trend on Twitter, despite how that's quite a big thing for Trekkies. I guess Mando won that one

[Dogg Thang]

Honestly I think that...

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baby Yoda is about 85% of the appeal of the show for a lot of people. While it wouldn't even affect all that much to have the story go on without him (he never did all that much), I have a feeling we'll see him back in season 3. For me, the show has two leads - Mando and Grogu, and they are both brilliant.

[Asura]

Honestly I think that...

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baby Yoda is about 85% of the appeal of the show for a lot of people. While it wouldn't even affect all that much to have the story go on without him (he never did all that much), I have a feeling we'll see him back in season 3. For me, the show has two leads - Mando and Grogu, and they are both brilliant.

Oh yeah, I should say...

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Oh yeah, I love the li'l guy. Honestly if he isn't still a big part of the show, that's a gutsy move. I didn't want him to go inasmuch as I know that in streaming TV, success is fleeting and things can change quickly. I just meant that I don't mind if Mando wants to try and have plot threads that end with a 1-2 season cadence.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I would agree with that. Although...

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I get bothered by Luke just taking him, not even asking if Mando wants to come too, no real trust built up. The Jedi just steal kids. So even though the whole mission was to deliver him to the Jedi, I was left feeling that it wasn't complete because I wasn't sure he should have been handed over at all. It didn't really feel to me like that part of the story was entirely finished.

[Asura]

Yeah, I would agree with that. Although...

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I get bothered by Luke just taking him, not even asking if Mando wants to come too, no real trust built up. The Jedi just steal kids. So even though the whole mission was to deliver him to the Jedi, I was left feeling that it wasn't complete because I wasn't sure he should have been handed over at all. It didn't really feel to me like that part of the story was entirely finished.

Yeah, there's something there.

I think the prequel trilogy really dropped the ball in this regard, like...

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... the books dwelled on this stuff more, about how the Jedi were built up as these paragons of virtue, but they clearly weren't.

In the EU, in Luke's new Jedi Order, the Jedi don't take children away (like, they do, but in a more Hogwarts-y sort of way), and they allow Jedi to marry and bear force-sensitive children. Luke recognises that their aloof, ascetic nature was part of the problem and tries to fix that.

I hate how the new movies basically had him repeat the same mistakes!

[Dogg Thang]

I don't think they did. I would interpret The Last Jedi very differently. And if anything, part of what happened here and what people love here...

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I think is part of the problem of his character in that people seem to remember a Luke that was either built up in their heads or maybe came from EU material but isn't the character in the movies. So the end of this episode is like a carbon copy of Vader at the end of Rogue One and, yeah, that kicks ass but it totally misses the journey he went on in Return of the Jedi, where he turns up as an arrogant would-be badass to Jabba's Palace and spends most of the movie experiencing failure after failure due to that arrogance until he finally hits a turning point and throws down that lightsaber and refuses to fight. Luke only ever failed as a badass and that's a big part of his character. And it feels like, for all the moaning, Ryan Johnson is one of the only people who read that character correctly.

[Asura]

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I think is part of the problem of his character in that people seem to remember a Luke that was either built up in their heads or maybe came from EU material but isn't the character in the movies.

That's fair. But of course...

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the movies, by necessity, kinda skipped from the end of Jedi to the start of TFA, which was what, 25 years? One of the problems with comparing EU Luke to movie Luke is, as you say, to do with character development or even character drift. In the books, the story picks up literally as they're leaving Endor and continues from there, so you have many stories in the intervening 25 years which continue Luke's development, so by the time we have a contemporary "slice" of the EU to compare to the movies, they're really, really different.

I don't see that as a weakness of the movies (that'd be daft) but as someone who loved the EU books (while also hating a lot of them, go figure - I don't need to know the name of every character in Jabba's palace or get a book about where Han Solo buys his socks) I liked the idea that Luke channeled his seemingly boundless optimism into something different - the founding of a new Jedi order which would differ significantly from the prior one.

Obviously in the new movies, they kept what happened with his new order quite vague; I think that was JJ Abrams at work, with his "present" approach.

Personally I didn't mind seeing Luke in the movies as a jaded shadow of his former self. That was actually one of the elements of them that I liked. Characters can't just win all the time, and the idea that Luke, this paragon of bright-eyed optimism with a strong sense of self-actualisation had become a jaded hermit created a great mystery - what put him there? And why? If he's the ultimate "wide-eyed kid" character, his failure would have to be the ultimate, guilt-ridden, gut-wrenching failure.

So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of people just dislike seeing Luke having become that person. That's not my problem at all. I wasn't fulfilled by what put him there. But, as I've said before, it's new Star Wars for a new generation; I had mine, they can have theirs. Not everything is made for me (and much of the EU was very much "made for me" too, so to ask for that would be very entitled).

EDIT: Also DT, just realised, you said you're disagreeing because of TLJ - but I said the prequel trilogy dropped the ball. We might be talking at cross purposes here.

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I think the prequel trilogy should've done more to, as you've said, show the Jedi as more fanatical than they did. They took Anakin away from his mother "for his own good" supposedly, which would later see his mother enslaved and dead; the movies didn't do enough to criticise the order for this.

Part of me wonders if, were the prequel trilogy made today, with the current reputation of big religious institutions of men like Catholicism, if it would be quite different on this specific theme. And I think that would be interesting.

[Dogg Thang]

Okay, I'm totally getting my nerd on here and we're discussing fictional stuff of absolutely no consequence so feel free not to engage at some point! But digging deeper...

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I totally agree on the prequel trilogy and the representation of the Jedi and how that it wasn't fully acknowledged. Like, it was kind of there but not really acknowledged. But again, I actually give Johnson some respect in The Last Jedi for calling out the Jedi based on what was in the prequels - a lot of people didn't like that but Luke was not wrong in that movie. The prequels were always a bit weird in that regard in that the Jedi didn't quite seem to fit with what we heard in the original trilogy (where they were described as a forgotten religion just a couple of decades later). I do think there was a missed opportunity in terms of addressing just what they were that was instead glossed over for some cool lightsaber fights.

But I'm going to pick you up on something about Luke, keeping in mind that I'm only going on the movies here so I do realise that there are many more stories told outside of those - " his seemingly boundless optimism". When we first meet Luke, he is moaning. He only agrees to go with Ben when his only family are wiped out. He later doesn't believe the Falcon is any good. When he meets Ben and Ben tells him about the Force and to trust it, he doesn't believe it can be done. We see that with the blast shield remote training. Luke straight up doesn't buy it. At many points in that movie, Luke demonstrates what I'd say is the exact opposite of boundless optimism. He is negative through and through... up until the X-Wing assault on the Death Star (starting with the briefing where he, for pretty much the first time in the movie, expresses optimism where others doubt). He then finally shows trust in the Force at the end.

But his negativity continues through Empire Strikes Back. Yoda says it straight out - "Always with you it cannot be done". Luke is not optimistic. His entire character is framed around that negativity and the journey he goes on. He learns that, in spite of his negativity, Ben was right. Yoda was right.

Luke's character has a turning point in Empire and it's when he decides to leave to rescue his friends. Is it optimism? No, it's arrogance. In spite of Yoda and Ben telling him he isn't ready, he goes anyway. And look how it turns out. That arrogance hits a peak in Return of the Jedi and is seen many times in the movie - "you'll turn Captain Solo and the wookiee over to me", "he won't turn me over the Emperor". In spite of not having completed his training, he thinks he is a badass and it bites him in the ass every time and puts everyone in danger. It's arrogance. And it sends him towards the dark side of the Force.

It's only when he throws down that lightsaber and refuses to fight that Luke really shows a huge amount of growth. And it feels like a peace comes with it that lasts to the end of the movie.

So I think he was always very far from a "paragon of bright-eyed optimism". Rey, that's another story - she's the exact opposite of Luke in The Force Awakens. But Luke is negative right from the first introduction and it feels like a very important part of his journey and his growth. You're far from alone in seeing optimism in Luke but I have a feeling that the wide-eyed child people see in Luke is themselves when they first watched the movie, not the actual character on screen.