London Riots

[koopatroopa90]

Sorry if it's already been mentioned (and for interrupting the wider political debate now underway) but has anyone seen how much has been raised for some of the victims? ?22k was raised for the stolen psp kid, another ?35k for an 89 year old barber and ?16k for a shop keeper. Theres another page for that 150 year old furniture store too although not sure exactly how much has been raised.

Quite nice to see how much people are prepared to give to help, I just hope it is divided and spent in the best way possible.

[monel]

You know what it means when something becomes big international news?

This whole riots thing was getting me down, the discussions online and everything and then, just now I saw that video and I was a bit:

['Press Start']

This is a turning point of some sort. I hope I'm wrong, I really hope I am, but this seems to be going from buggered to very, very dangerous.

I hear ya

[Team Andromeda]

This is a broken society, and the huge push on consumerism and personal entitlement (because you're worth it!) makes this world a completely different one to the eras you're bringing up. And it can get more broken

Poverty now is nothing to what it was in the 1930's where there was no social system (real Poverty) and if the Riots only happened in London, people may have had a point, they didn't . What's really changed is a complete lack of discipline both in schools and the Home, social system that gives these kids more money than ever and a complete lack of Community Policing and community Police stations(the real screw up of the Thatcher years) Where the youth of today aren't scared of the Police, becasue we'll only them, long afterthe Crime been commitmened

That means that the number of people below the poverty line will increase - more excluded, angry bored people and their excluded, angry bored children. The yobs can only increase greatly in number.

How people make out, people can be poor when then it most cases have: they'll the latest Mobile Phones the Latests Nike Air's the Latest ADIDAS Tracksuit's, a PC, Console, TV's, DVD player in their bedrooms, never mind central Heating, microwaves, fridges, washing Machines and the all the other White Goods and Mod cons that the average home in the 60 70's lacked, never mind in the 50's, is quite beyond me. Ok some hadn't been on general sale, but how anyone can make out they're poor when then have so much is an insult to the people, who really don't have nothing, never mind a home.

If the Poverty excuse was real, then Great Britain would have been one of the most dangerous places to live in the world during the 1970's (when the country was broke and we had to beg the IMF) the 1930's or the 1940's after the Great Depression and a World War, but somehow that didn't quite seem the case .
Can you imagine some of the Youth of today if we had a World War ?..... I doubt very much, that like the in WW II days they'll be lying about their age to get it and sign up. They'll most prob, be texting their mates saying I hope Germany wins, lets get on the streets and Riot and have a laugh Most of the ungrateful tossers can't even be bothered to use their vote, never mind people died to give these scum their Freedom and that right

I think a lot of this was caused by boredom(not as an excuse). The issue is what you do to satiate that boredom. Some people draw, others play games, some might throw tantrums are be a bit naughty. I just reckon a lot of these rioters were so messed up in the head that they decided rioting is somehow a fun and exciting way to waste some time.

I can't think of anyone that doesn't at some point get bored during the day or week, even the ones that are well to do or have Jobs. I bet that's why some post on here just out of not much else to do. If the Scum came out and said sorry , they were caught up in the moment , who wouldn't pick up a PS3 if the shop was open and then was no shop keeper there

One could say fair enough, They didn't. They reamed off these pre-prepared excuses about Jobs, Cuts to Students grants , the EMA. When in most cases they've long since left school and are not in Uni and I'm not sure how old people are here, but had nothing like the EMA in my day, maybe we should have gone on a Riot .

Oh Yeah... smashing up the shops and burning them is a sure way to attract Investment and getting a Job.

[Adrock]

Comparing living standards of today with history isn't helpful and serves no purpose to the discussion at all. Mainly because by their definition they affect most people, so even though the baseline of quality of living has improved immeasurably there are still gonna be people right at the bottom of the scale. They will still feel like they are at the bottom because they measure their situation on those around them, not some notion of how lucky they are not to be wearing flat caps and cleaning chimneys.

This, however, is in no way an excuse for the people rioting. Its disgusting anybody can try to justify their rioting on poverty when they're stealing TVs and trainers, all luxury goods. If people were rioting for food there would be a completely different tone to the debate and a lot more sympathy.

The truth is, people somehow felt they could get away with the rioting because they saw the Tottenham riots and the police had failed to react correctly. For some reason people believe they are entitled to the latest gadgets and do not understand the need to work and save for such things.

Also, EMA was designed for students who were some of the poorest in society. The money was designed to help them pay their way whilst still in education rather than either being forced into work or the dole to help pay their way. I think it was a pretty good scheme, although it should have been tightly targeted. The idea was for it to augment social mobility, historically this country finds it difficult to accommodate poorer people's desire to improve their situation.

The riots had so many factors to them that its gonna be difficult to cover them in a single post let alone the 50 pages we've had so far.

Also, billy I saw Starkey on newsnight. I also listened to his interview on 5live after the TV appearance and I can see where he is coming from. His problem is that he is an old white man trying to argue this point. The current youth culture is definitely a factor in the riots and Starkey is well known for choosing his words to cause maximum effect.

[Ady]

I think very few probably thought they were protesting. Mostly just seemed to be thugs, scumbags, kids and opportunists. I very much doubt many had any higher purpose going in.

This.

Despite what some sophists might say, the looting and rioting had nothing to do with the initial protest about the guy who was shot.

The protests were peaceful, and opportunist thugs just piggy-backed off it to start a riot.

[Dogg Thang]

For some reason people believe they are entitled to the latest gadgets and do not understand the need to work and save for such things.

You say 'for some reason' like it's a huge mystery but people, especially young people as it happens, have been reduced to consumers. Bombarded for their entire lives from all directions with items they are told they need, they deserve, that they are incomplete without. Messages carefully crafted from years of research to breed personal desire. Not responsibility. Certainly not saving. Desire.

As for TA and the community police and discipline, yes, that has changed but so has just about everything else around them. As Adrock says, you can't really compare (or at least not without taking in the whole picture, which isn't really happening). Especially not at war time. Things look very different when you have an oppressive force knocking on your doorstep. And as for the deliverately emotive invoking of the memory of those who died in WW2, yes, I suspect they didn't die for this vision of the world. Nor the oppressive society in which the UK's own people are its enemy that's currently being invited, by some with open arms.

There has been a lot of talk about the law-abiding people. And these looters aren't among them. But, if you're to abide by laws, you need a reason to do so. As was referred to in one of my links, it's a social contract. At some point, if those laws really don't work for you and it seems they won't ever work for you (and I mean any of us, not just looters), why should you abide by them? If your only answer is threat from the police, ruling by fear, well that's a country that is absolutely screwed. That's a country the UK has said it fights against, from your WW2 vets right up to now. And it's a country in which its own people will eventually rise up against the state.

What's unfortunate, regardless of the reasons (whether social or your own discipline ideas or a whole generation being born evil), is that this has happened. It can not be undone. What happens now will dictate whether this gets much, much worse or people start working to actually make this better.

[Tig]

*sigh*

Good luck to us. I'm done with the thread.

Yeah, I'm out.


For the record I agree with pretty much everything Dogg Thang said. Great posts.

[endo]

Putting it in a nutshell

Can't we have a 'like' button on here?

Either we sort ourselves out and finally, decades late, address the root causes of why riots like those that just happened happen, or we just clean up and carry on. ****, I don't know why we don't just send the army in directly to poor areas to shoot the residents!?! Don't talk to me about boredom, this is nothing like rural Wales in the 50s, etc. etc!!!1! Indignant rage!

Shall we have a forum party when Thatcher finally dies?

[Team Andromeda]

You say 'for some reason' like it's a huge mystery but people, especially young people as it happens, have been reduced to consumers. Bombarded for their entire lives from all directions with items they are told they need, they deserve, that they are incomplete without. Messages carefully crafted from years of research to breed personal desire. Not responsibility. Certainly not saving. Desire.

You keep going about poverty. Now if these Rioters were dressed in rags , showing obvious signs of being starving hungry and suffering from malnutrition. You could say the poor dabs , they really do have nothing ; Only they're going round rioting , while texting their mates onthe Blackberry (where the average contract is 20/30 quid a month) and running around in their Nike Air's

These kids have everything (far more to what Children of previous generations had) but thinks the World owe's them a living .The ones that can't be bothered to get an educational or stay in the school, the ones can't be bothered to get a Job, can't be bothered to vote ,can't talk to the Police Instead think its much cooler to walk around the streets with Knife's and Guns (and wonder why they get stopped and searched) and do nothing . These scum have them self's, have created the **** holes they live in, and have the cheek to wonder why they feel left out .
Don't hang round in Gangs, don't carry Knife's or Guns, get a Job or stay in Education, use your Vote and if you see any Crime report it. Maybe then, you'll get respect and the Political classes will engage with you .

For far too long, like with religious fundamentalism, like with the Hooligan Culture The Police had/have turned a Blind eye and allowed it go on for fear of upsetting groups or didn't want the hassle . Sadly its takes death of people and the destruction of property before they and the Government acts... Maybe the Police will now start to deal with the Gang culture and come down hard on these tossers and we see an end to the Political correctness madness culture

[Dogg Thang]

You keep going about poverty.

Actually I don't. The post you quote doesn't mention poverty and pretty much answers ever line beyond the one above. It's much more complicated than poverty. I don't mind if you want to make it incredibly simplistic yourself but I'd rather you don't try to make out that I 'keep going about' something as if I have just a single point because it's a bit on the misleading side. By all means retort the points but let my points be my points, not the points you'd like to make them.

[EDDIE M0NS00N]

I think that TA was suggesting that you are saying that those who dont have money (but are as bombarded by consumerism as everyone else) feel resentment & bitter for not being able to have all of these possessions, thats all.

[MartyG]

What happens now will dictate whether this gets much, much worse or people start working to actually make this better.

I'm going with worse. Knee-jerk laws (as we've seen before) to make it look like something is being done, and kicking people out of their housing is unlikely to make things better.

[monel]

Modern politics seems to be all about soundbites and grandstanding, appealing to the lowest common denominator or what was once termed 'Mondeo man', or both at the same time. Why the hell bring in an American policeman to solve everything, causing further resentment amongst the home grown police? He may know all about gangs and racial tension in America but does that quaify him to lecture everyone here?


News International and Murdoch must be thanking the heavens for the riots because it seems everyone's forgotten about their antics, and the word 'antics' is drastic understatement.

[Dogg Thang]

I think that TA was suggesting that you are saying that those who dont have money (but are as bombarded by consumerism as everyone else) feel resentment & bitter for not being able to have all of these possessions, thats all.

As TA rightly pointed out, many of them do have a lot of these things. Again, it's just not that simple and if the discussion has moved on from the looters to how 'how do we boil all of Dogg's points down to just one?', that's a discussion that, for me, doesn't quite work because... you can't. I realise it would make it all much easier, and honestly wish it was as simple as fixing one thing, I really do. I'll happy discuss the looters but a discussion on the discussion, especially when it can result in misrepresentation, does all posts (yours, mine and everyone elses) a disservice because it just leads to straw man arguments. It's messy.

So, although it has been a good discussion and I genuinely appreciate the your views and TA's and everyone elses (and I do, I've enjoyed it), like some others, I'll have to declare myself out until there are some new points to draw me back in.

Edit: Oh, and yes Marty, I imagine it is pretty rare we can make the world better by making it worse for people.