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[Taka]

Thanks for the tips guys. Like I said, I'm definitely seeing improvements just from the four sessions I've been doing each week. One of them is hard, two moderately hard, and one long and easy. I'm just a bit impatient as I really want to hit that sub 20 on the 5k. I probably shouldn't wish for it too soon, as I'll just be onto another, tougher goal after that. It has taken me a year to get from 21:57 to 20:31. I work really hard (and sensibly) at it, and I still class myself as untalented when it comes to this hobby. I try to take on board advice from many runners way better than myself, but people have different ideas about what brings results rapidly and effectively (and safely).

Anyway, I'll try adding in some faster sections to my LSR every now and then. In fact I do do this already from time to time, just to spice it up when things get a bit boring. [emoji2]

Is 16-20k sufficient for my long run or am I likely to see speed improvements if I start extending this more frequently to 25-30k?

Aaaaand shoes...

If you say they won't help with my running speed or endurance then there's not much point in forcing a transition to barefootwear. I'm just looking for something to assist, and I thought adding this kind of variation might help. I have no preference for any minimal shoe model, so recommendations are welcome if you think it's worth it.

It probably took me 6 months of unfocused, generic training to get from 20:50 to sub-20 in 2013.

What I found helped the most was focused interval work at just a touch faster than 5k pace (3:59/km). When I started, I could just about do 3x 800m at 3:59 and would be whacked afterwards. Steadily over a few weeks, I worked up to 5x 800m and this seemed to do the trick. Make the rest about 1.5 to 2 minutes.

A variation on this for further development would be to slot in 1x 800m, 1x 1600m, 1x 800m at target pace with the long interval in the middle boosting your endurance. Similar rest to above.

To take things one step further, 3x 1600m at target pace and you should be able to nail it. This one will be tough, but you should be most confident of it happening if you can do it.

[charlesr]

If you can get to a point where your weekly long runs are alternating between 20 and 14 miles, you'll see massive gains in the long term. But the fastest way to get fast at the long stuff is to be able to smash the 5k. Pain

[Terry Tibbs]

Intervals wise, I'm at the point where I could probably muster 5 x 800 @ 3.59/km, but that would be about my limit. Not sure if I could do 1600m without slowing a bit, but I'll have a go on Tuesday. [emoji106]

[Terry Tibbs]

I've got a decent 10 mile route I do on Sundays, and I make sure that's my minimum distance. Perhaps I should up this a smidge to say 13-14 miles/20-22k.

[Terry Tibbs]

I can't remember, did you guys talk me out of getting some minimal shoes? [emoji3]

[charlesr]

Sounds pretty good Taka. Intense but good

[Taka]

I can't remember, did you guys talk me out of getting some minimal shoes? [emoji3]

LOL! I think I did

Re the interval suggestions above, I would strongly urge you to do the 800m reps first as a tester at that pace. If you feel good afterwards, then perhaps slot in 1x 1600m the following week. Diving straight into 1600m reps could knacker you out and derail the rest of your week!

[fishbowlhead]

Saw a guy running in bear foot for the first time the other day. Running bare foot on concrete, with god knows what on the surface, no thanks.

[Terry Tibbs]

Yeah that's pretty crazy to have no foot protection at all on a footpath.

Having talked all the talk about being able to do 5 x 800m @ 3:59/km, having only 2 mins rest could make it quite a challenge. Am I allowed to walk those 2 mins?

[Taka]

Absolutely. It's up to you how you 'recover' in those 2 minutes. I normally stand still or walk in circles on the spot whilst I get my breathing and thoughts straight for the next rep. Some people like to jog the recovery, which has the benefit of clearing the lactic acid more quickly.

The beauty of the intervals is you can make them more challenging in a number of ways:

- Add more reps
- Increase pace
- Increase distance
- Mix and match different distances
- Decrease rest

For 5k specificity, I tend to only increase the pace or increase the reps (minimum of 3, maximum of 6). I only occasionally throw in a 1600m rep amongst the 800s, and my rest of 90 seconds is pretty much at my limit to recover for another bash.

For comparison, I'm currently working on 10k specificity and am working on increasing 3x 1600m at 3:58/km to 5x 1600m. You can see where the sub-20 5k ends and the sub-40 10k begins, with the two dovetailing quite nicely together.

[charlesr]

When you are running barefoot you avoid stepping on stuff on the pavement. Worst is stuff hidden in grass that you can't see. Bloke at parkrun hot broken glass in his foot. Pavement is safe.

[Terry Tibbs]

Well, I didn't buy any new footwear yet, but I did attempt 5 x 800 @ 3:59/km today, and here's how it went:

av. pace

1. 3:56/km
2. 3:57/km
3. 3:58/km
4. 4:02/km
5. 4:12/km

I took exactly 2 minutes of walking recovery between each effort, which as I said before is slightly less than I have taken in the past (but then, I would also normally tend to jog my recovery). It's clear I need to work on this a bit, which is great because it's exactly this sort of thing I wanted to identify. On another day I could definitely manage all 5 reps at the target pace, but it sure ain't easy -- which I guess is the point!

I also did 800m of barefoot running (well, in socks), at about 5:45/km as part of my cool down. I did stay on the grass for this. It felt very strange, and I could feel the calves working despite the slow pace. Something else I became aware of was my left heel making quite early contact with the ground. It may have been just because I was knackered from the intervals. I'll try this again next week (on a non-interval day), and see if it still happens. What felt even weirder was putting the shoes back on to run back to the office -- could really feel all that sponge!

[charlesr]

The heel should touch touch down only a fraction after the forefoot. Do you mean the heel was going down first? Well done for trying.

Those intervals look quite close to me apart from the last one. If it was flat out on that last one, then you need to slow them all down a bit - you should be finishing not quite flat out according to what I've read.

[Terry Tibbs]

Cheers. The last one was definitely not flat out. Truth be told I almost didn't do it. I think you're right, there's the possibility the earlier ones should have been 4:05/km or so. I would like to try the same session again next week, and see if I fare any better. I'm sure I can.

Likewise with the heel landing barefoot thing. I scarcely had a chance to acknowledge there was somehow earlier/more noticeable contact between the left heel and ground. I'm not sure whether ball or heel was connecting first. More testing required. [emoji3]

[Taka]

Terry, reps all look very good bar the last one. One further pointer I would give you is to always finish like you have one more rep inside you. It's always the last one proper that benches you with injury or knackers you out completely. Keep the pace the same for next week and work your way back up to 5x reps again over a few weeks.

The goal is getting closer!