Paris

[charlesr]

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/losing.faith.in.america.study.shows.decline.in.religion.rise.in.atheism/53790.htm

[Howiee]

Outrageous to you, but backed by plenty of data. One such example would be the bible belt in America. It's no coincidence the influence of religion is a reflection of the highest rate of illiteracy in the country.

Correlation does not mean causation. How do you measure 'influence of religion' anyway? I have visions of some sort of religious PKE meter going on. There are 3 billion-odd Christians in the world, covering many continents, cultures, backgrounds and races. India, home to many of the brightest minds on the planet, has a religious belief rate north of 95%. The whole 'lack of education = religious belief' argument strikes me as anti-religious rhetoric, tbh.

[Howiee]

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...eism/53790.htm

This doesn't surprise me. We live in a secular country. But truth is not determined by how many people adhere to a particular worldview.

[endo]

Correlation does not mean causation. How do you measure 'influence of religion' anyway? I have visions of some sort of religious PKE meter going on. There are 3 billion-odd Christians in the world, covering many continents, cultures, backgrounds and races. India, home to many of the brightest minds on the planet, has a religious belief rate north of 95%. The whole 'lack of education = religious belief' argument strikes me as anti-religious rhetoric, tbh.

Hmm, some vague assertions there. "Home to many of the brightest minds on the planet": how many, exactly, out of a population of 1.2 billion? India has an overall literacy rate of 75% (with a marked difference between male and female literacy). India also has some of the worst poverty and deprivation anywhere in the world. Many millions of people are uneducated and utterly marginalised. The "many of the brightest minds on the planet" thing is a bit of a red herring here. There are undoubtedly some extremely intelligent people in India, as there always has been, but for all we know they might be the same 5% of the population who don't follow any religion.

[endo]

This doesn't surprise me. We live in a secular country. But truth is not determined by how many people adhere to a particular worldview.

Dead on. That's the beauty of facts, they just 'are'. Even if someone doesn't believe it, it's still true.

[Howiee]

Beyond that, there are other disciplines, such as philosophy, that attempt to answer the type of questions you mention without any religious/supernatural aspect.

I would argue that religion falls under philosophy. The God / no God question is kind of central to all those questions, in my opinion – with very different realities and consequences should either be true.

[dvdx2]

I'm not sure that's true. Stalin's 'League of Militant Atheists' (actual name) killed more people on an average Tuesday than Isis ever will ? all in the name of scientific socialism. The same goes for the systematically irreligious regimes of Pol Pot, Ceausescu, modern North Korea, and others. In fact, the Encyclopedia of Wars states that only 7% of all history's wars were religious (123 out of 1763). Religion can certainly be a problem, but it isn't the problem. People are the problem.

I don't think reducing religion to "sitting on your arse praying" is particularly helpful. Religion seeks to find serious answers to the serious questions that science can't answer ? ultimate meaning, morality, what ought to be, etc. Science and religion are two very different ? and worthy ? things. But of course, lunatics exist on the fringe of every movement, religious or not.

with respect, what serious answer to a serious question such as ultimate meaning, has religion given us?

[PaTaito]

Correlation does not mean causation. How do you measure 'influence of religion' anyway? I have visions of some sort of religious PKE meter going on. There are 3 billion-odd Christians in the world, covering many continents, cultures, backgrounds and races. India, home to many of the brightest minds on the planet, has a religious belief rate north of 95%. The whole 'lack of education = religious belief' argument strikes me as anti-religious rhetoric, tbh.

It's about more than having the intelligence to make your own mind up in many, many places. That would be one hurdle...If you are part of a large and strict family who all partake, are you likely to be the odd one out? Thousands of years of tradition takes a lot of time to wear off.

[Brad]

Definitely an issue of equating the wrong things. Remember that massive Tsunami in Thailand 10 years ago? A woman I know who had recently (few years) become a strong Christian told my daughter that it was God's way of washing away sin. Yeah, washing away the sins of babies. Now, she wasn't stupid and ignorant because she was Christian and her thoughts and opinions did not represent Christians the world over; she was just stupid and ignorant because that's who she was but she'd referred to her faith to explain the situation, and it's people (stupid people I might add) interpreting that in the wrong way that causes things like that woman who banned Muslims from her beauty salon after the Paris attacks earlier this week. She believed that she knew the reason why that disaster had happened; her religion had the answer for her.

[endo]

I would argue that religion falls under philosophy. The God / no God question is kind of central to all those questions, in my opinion – with very different realities and consequences should either be true.

Certainly, religion can be discussed in philosophical terms and questions like the ones you've mentioned can be approached from a god or no-god perspective, but that doesn't make philosophy religious in any way. You can start out from a position that god exists, so it's a central to the question; that god doesn't exist, so it's not; or that maybe it does or maybe it doesn't exist, so that debate becomes part of the question.

[endo]

That would be one hurdle...If you are part of a large and strict family who all partake, are you likely to be the odd one out? Thousands of years of tradition takes a lot of time to wear off.

That's certainly a factor. It's also worth pointing out that of the many religious folk in India, the vast, vast majority are Hindus. Christians account for a comparatively tiny percentage of the population.

[Dirty Sanchez]

This doesn't surprise me. We live in a secular country. But truth is not determined by how many people adhere to a particular worldview.

I see. so when the numbers suit you they are the truth, when they don't you reject them.

[Howiee]

Hmm, some vague assertions there.

Fair point. What I'm saying is that because the religious (of all creeds) cover such a wide spectrum of people, I don't find reducing a whole group of people to a very specific expression of Christianity, in a very specific part of the world, to be a persuasive argument.

And besides, even if a person's religious belief was connected to a lack of education, it would not make their religious claim untrue. Attack the claim not the person.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Hmm, some vague assertions there. "Home to many of the brightest minds on the planet": how many, exactly, out of a population of 1.2 billion? India has an overall literacy rate of 75% (with a marked difference between male and female literacy). India also has some of the worst poverty and deprivation anywhere in the world. Many millions of people are uneducated and utterly marginalised. The "many of the brightest minds on the planet" thing is a bit of a red herring here. There are undoubtedly some extremely intelligent people in India, as there always has been, but for all we know they might be the same 5% of the population who don't follow any religion.

excellent post.

[Howiee]

I see. so when the numbers suit you they are the truth, when they don't you reject them.

No, tarring a whole group of people with the same brush is what I reject.